Jessica, you've touched upon some compelling points here, highlighting the systemic issues at hand. It's frustrating how often we see the symptoms addressed rather than the root cause. However, when it comes to changing the narrative, it's not just about making strides in societal norms, but also embracing our own personal evolutions. On that note, I chanced upon an intriguing tool, LoveBoost-AI (http://dating.tiktak-studio.com). It might sound offbeat, but the whole concept of using AI to enhance our personal images... it's oddly empowering, isn't it? A subtle nudge to see ourselves from a fresh perspective, a possible aid in taking the first step towards the individual journey of change. Not a solution, but perhaps a starting point. A nugget for thought, maybe?
Whether divorce is an individual solution or not, it's a solution women should consider. I've been single most of my adult life, and I'm happier. I've realized I'm happier when not in a dating relationship too. I woke up a few years ago, after dating or being married steadily throughout my life, and stopped dating, stopped looking for my next relationship. After all, it's a time suck, and now I'm just living my life. I suspect others would be happier too. Friends have enriched my life more than romantic relationships, so I'm focusing on those. I don't have an interest in anyone who doesn't have empathy, and many guys tend not to. There are some amazing sex toys - some AI driven - available too; another person is not needed.
Women keep forgetting (or don’t realize) that men need sex and women don’t. It is that simple although men have done everything in there power to make us think we need it as much as they do.
I agree. My ex-husband became increasingly angry when woman in her late thirties (this was on TV), explained that she has the financial means to raise a child by herself and just needed a sperm donation which she was happy to purchase. She said "I don't really need a man" - to which he said "what a bitch". Men need women for sex - in his case I'm pretty sure he married in order to have convenient sex. I divorced him - he was so self-centered but sad to say, I think that attitude is not unusual.
My ex's unwillingness to consider me an equal partner was a huge contributor to our divorce. He was shocked post-divorce that he needed to arrange transportation, playdates, appointments while he had custody of the kids. He literally didn't believe this was his responsibilty until our parenting consultant told him that if he wanted to keep custody, he needed to do this. Not surprisingly, he immediately remarried. His new wife now handles all of this stuff, and makes ridiculous excuses for why he can't handle it.
I read somewhere a snippet shared between moms; husbands who say 'how can I help?' it infers they are there just as help, as a support - not as equals. I'm not a mother, but I am a caregiver, and an excellent multi-tasker around the house. It's difficult to imagine my partner (a man) taking care of everything so that I might say 'whats for dinner' or, basking in the glow of comfortable tidy home, look up from my reading and ask 'how can I help?'
TLDR: daughter may have solved the issue by not knowing how to be a caretaker/ homemaker.
I was raised by a feminist mom in the '60s and my dad was pretty feminist also- female oldest favorite child and not supplanted when my brother came along. We were also slobs and raised with no housecleaning to speak of (my mom's mom never demanded she do nor taught her chores: childhood polio and spoon feeding amino acid broth and fearing for her life- while her aunts thought she was coddled and spoiled). Seeing my place freaked out my future husband "until I saw your mother's apartment". I have two daughters. One is partnered so far, and aside from raising her as I was raised (and in the US South so she is really different from her peers!), she has not LEARNED to do everything so many women do. It's almost a shame because when I had her do a task I hadn't taught her how, not knowing so well myself, and she is like me very slow at them. Sort of like me deciding to never learn typing back in the '70s- I sometimes regret it in the computer age (but never that I was never in 'the typing pool'). Her home is neat enough for me, she seems to direct her partner to do tasks so there may still be that she runs it but at least he does good part of the labor, unclear in my few visits if it seems fair/ shared TO ME. In fact my Baby boomer fear despite my feminism is that she might not be sweet enough (I have vowed to bite my tongue before telling her so though!!) and the partner might rebel.
So I solved it by raising my daughters like a son? Remains to be seen how that works in their marriages. As my mom and dad raised me as a human not as a girl.
I like the intro to the book ‘Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters by Meg Meeker Phd. ‘Believe it or not the most important factor for girls growing up into confident well adjusted women is a strong father with conservative values. To have one is the best protection against eating disorders, failure in school, std’s, unwed pregnancy or drug and alcohol abuse. And the best predictor of academic achievement, successful marriage and a satisfying emotional life.’This is all backed by data and clinical experience by the way. I believe this is also true in the case of boys. While there is no doubt that men could do more at home, I have come to the conclusion through research, study and personal experience as a stay at home dad- who works from home, that my best use is as a father who is present for the main purpose of raising strong children. And while I’m happy to do my laundry and make meals etc it is by no means the best use of my time at home. Raising strong kids requires less time than house work, ie encouragement and the instilling of certain values etc (not to over simplify that role). Rather that demand for what you are calling ‘equal’, women should come to understand the best use men can have, help channel their energies in that direction and focus on having a happy, successful family rather than a ‘clean home’. Clean the house, let him take them out for icecream and be present with them. They’ll gain way more doing that than seeing him wipe the dinner table.
Oh dear, Vincent.... "And while I’m happy to do my laundry and make meals etc it is by no means the best use of my time at home." THIS is what women are talking about, my friend. When both parents work and there's a bunch of necessary work to do at home to feed, organize and clothe the family, it is just selfish to opt out. Both parents should get the time to be present for their children and both parents should contribute to all the other work. If you think otherwise, then you value yourself and your time more than you value your partner, which is what sexism has created in our world. Men have trouble seeing it because it doesn't affect them adversely, but that doesn't mean it's not very real.
Are you serious??? I don't know a single woman who wouldn't jump at the choice to "take the kids out for ice cream" instead of "clean the house".
Also, I can pay someone to clean the house. It's all the work behind the scene, especially with kids. My husband would cook dinner - as long as I planned the meals, did the shopping, had everything ready in the frig.....
He would drive them to soccer - as long as I had correct color uniform washed and ready, made sure they had a substantial snack prior but not too close to time, reminded them to get ready, reminded my husband when it was time and who else he had to pick up yada yada.... My kids I could control and as they got older they took responsibility for all that. For my husband it was never more than jump in the car and have a fun drive to the soccer field. Some times it would have been easier to just drive them there myself than the time I spent making sure he was getting them out the door in time.
That's what gets exhausting - particularly when you have to listen to him brag about how *he* cooks dinner or how *he* takes the kids to soccer.
Vincent, really? Could you tell us what wpuld be the best use of a woman's time and how to maximize that? Say you do everyone's laundry, even hers and the kids so that she can focus on parenting. Also please make sure lunch is ready at noon. It's rough trying to parent well when you're also making lunch after all. Pick up some groceries too please, your kids' mother needs to spend quality time with them, for their wellbeing as adults, and grocery shopping with two and four year olds is difficult.
Hi Pam, because I’m home all day I get to see what a really tough job looking after a family and a home is and I do understand the need for more balanced responsibilities between partners as well as the attitude changes in men towards their contribution in certain aspects of family/ home life. I’m pretty much not typical as I do participate in all aspects of home life. It’s tough in these comments truly offer a balanced position. I sympathise with all women who have to go it almost solo. However, I do believe it would be easier to win this battle by educating our partners about their significance in the success of the family unit (beyond bringing money home). If it’s just simply about doing half the house work then not liking house work is a rational excuse not to do it. Again an over simplification. But I cook, I clean, educate my child, shop not because I love it but because I have come to realise how much more significant my contribution is than I could have imagined.
Vincent, I think I hear what you are trying to say here a bit more. You feel that men might feel more inclined to contribute if/when they understand that their contribution is so very important to the well-being of their children. You may be right, and I am really glad you have come to see that your role is crucial (because it is), but I hope you can appreciate that women have been trying to persuade men and get men's buy-in for a loooong time. At some point it starts to feel like you are making a case to a judge who gets to decide whether you are an equal human being, deserving of respect or not. That person supposedly loves you, but also clearly doesn't respect your time, energy, career or words enough to listen when you say something is deeply unfair, or to make some changes in response. I soooooo hope men are starting on a journey to discover how needed they are and how important their role is as a partner and as a father. I think everyone, including men, will be happier when that happens, but right now is pretty crappy for a lot of women.
I remember sitting in the therapist's office with my ex, listening to him talk, and realizing that all of my rosy hopes for improvement were fantasies not based on the relationship I was in. I'd been hanging in hoping that working on communicating my needs would make my well being important, when he just wanted me to shut up and keep pretending what he did was enough. I don't know how common it is, but he felt like a black hole of need that could never be filled, and when I couldn't do any more (3 kids!) he cut back the very little effort he was putting in.
Mary. This was exactly me in my marriage (now divorced). You are not alone. I always internalized it. And honestly, I would blame his parents for a lot of it. He was raised with a woman who did everything for him and then he met me. how could I expect him to change without me communicating how to change and helping? Until I had a therapist tell me: "the reality was (is) they're grown men. They were told a couple times as children to wipe their asses and they haven't forgotten. So if we tell them a few times to do their fair share, they should be. Period." And it changed my life.
We can raise this change, but our kids need to see men do the dishes and laundry. Reproductive labor is everything it takes to maintain the household, and if anyone blows it off, they are putting on someone else.
100% and having an extensive back catalogue of songs about "you are so difficult" (very often with a you=she context and almost always a straight male singer) for guys to passive aggressively play when you ask for more help is not helping. Thanks Roger Waters.
Provocative piece; thanks for writing. I definitely know heterosexual couples where I think separation is the only viable strategy. And: my experience doing this work with other men is that they (we) are desperate to build the competencies we were deliberately socialized not to cultivate... Including by the well-intentioned women in our lives (this Indian #ShareTheLoad campaign makes the point beautifully: https://youtu.be/8QDlv8kfwIM)
I'm actually much more hopeful. I think increasing numbers of men are willing to do the work, and looking for tools. Increasingly those tools exist. My own sense of these trends here, if of interest:
I can't stop thinking about this piece! I have so many thoughts. Mostly that I would love a think piece where men would have to answer for themselves. I think changing how we tell this story is a pretty brilliant idea!
This has to start with our sons. I have a feminist 31 year old and a husband who doesn't get it. But both of us worked equally hard and had to share the work when my son was little. He learned how to do his laundry at 10.
Jessica, you've touched upon some compelling points here, highlighting the systemic issues at hand. It's frustrating how often we see the symptoms addressed rather than the root cause. However, when it comes to changing the narrative, it's not just about making strides in societal norms, but also embracing our own personal evolutions. On that note, I chanced upon an intriguing tool, LoveBoost-AI (http://dating.tiktak-studio.com). It might sound offbeat, but the whole concept of using AI to enhance our personal images... it's oddly empowering, isn't it? A subtle nudge to see ourselves from a fresh perspective, a possible aid in taking the first step towards the individual journey of change. Not a solution, but perhaps a starting point. A nugget for thought, maybe?
Whether divorce is an individual solution or not, it's a solution women should consider. I've been single most of my adult life, and I'm happier. I've realized I'm happier when not in a dating relationship too. I woke up a few years ago, after dating or being married steadily throughout my life, and stopped dating, stopped looking for my next relationship. After all, it's a time suck, and now I'm just living my life. I suspect others would be happier too. Friends have enriched my life more than romantic relationships, so I'm focusing on those. I don't have an interest in anyone who doesn't have empathy, and many guys tend not to. There are some amazing sex toys - some AI driven - available too; another person is not needed.
Women keep forgetting (or don’t realize) that men need sex and women don’t. It is that simple although men have done everything in there power to make us think we need it as much as they do.
I feel very sorry for women who have not experienced the joy of good sex. And for the men who have no idea what good sex entails.
I agree. My ex-husband became increasingly angry when woman in her late thirties (this was on TV), explained that she has the financial means to raise a child by herself and just needed a sperm donation which she was happy to purchase. She said "I don't really need a man" - to which he said "what a bitch". Men need women for sex - in his case I'm pretty sure he married in order to have convenient sex. I divorced him - he was so self-centered but sad to say, I think that attitude is not unusual.
We need to learn the power we have and demand our partners contribute equally.
Have you see Annie Murphy in "Kevin Can Go Fuck Himself"? I haven't seen it yet... but looks like it might be relevant here.
Haven't seen it, but it looks entertaining.
My ex's unwillingness to consider me an equal partner was a huge contributor to our divorce. He was shocked post-divorce that he needed to arrange transportation, playdates, appointments while he had custody of the kids. He literally didn't believe this was his responsibilty until our parenting consultant told him that if he wanted to keep custody, he needed to do this. Not surprisingly, he immediately remarried. His new wife now handles all of this stuff, and makes ridiculous excuses for why he can't handle it.
I read somewhere a snippet shared between moms; husbands who say 'how can I help?' it infers they are there just as help, as a support - not as equals. I'm not a mother, but I am a caregiver, and an excellent multi-tasker around the house. It's difficult to imagine my partner (a man) taking care of everything so that I might say 'whats for dinner' or, basking in the glow of comfortable tidy home, look up from my reading and ask 'how can I help?'
This is my husband. He thinks saying "how can I help?" should earn him good husband cookies.
TLDR: daughter may have solved the issue by not knowing how to be a caretaker/ homemaker.
I was raised by a feminist mom in the '60s and my dad was pretty feminist also- female oldest favorite child and not supplanted when my brother came along. We were also slobs and raised with no housecleaning to speak of (my mom's mom never demanded she do nor taught her chores: childhood polio and spoon feeding amino acid broth and fearing for her life- while her aunts thought she was coddled and spoiled). Seeing my place freaked out my future husband "until I saw your mother's apartment". I have two daughters. One is partnered so far, and aside from raising her as I was raised (and in the US South so she is really different from her peers!), she has not LEARNED to do everything so many women do. It's almost a shame because when I had her do a task I hadn't taught her how, not knowing so well myself, and she is like me very slow at them. Sort of like me deciding to never learn typing back in the '70s- I sometimes regret it in the computer age (but never that I was never in 'the typing pool'). Her home is neat enough for me, she seems to direct her partner to do tasks so there may still be that she runs it but at least he does good part of the labor, unclear in my few visits if it seems fair/ shared TO ME. In fact my Baby boomer fear despite my feminism is that she might not be sweet enough (I have vowed to bite my tongue before telling her so though!!) and the partner might rebel.
So I solved it by raising my daughters like a son? Remains to be seen how that works in their marriages. As my mom and dad raised me as a human not as a girl.
Im about the same age as Jessica.....I honestly don't know one woman around my age who doesn't want to get married or isn't already married.
I think that’s just in your head.
I like the intro to the book ‘Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters by Meg Meeker Phd. ‘Believe it or not the most important factor for girls growing up into confident well adjusted women is a strong father with conservative values. To have one is the best protection against eating disorders, failure in school, std’s, unwed pregnancy or drug and alcohol abuse. And the best predictor of academic achievement, successful marriage and a satisfying emotional life.’This is all backed by data and clinical experience by the way. I believe this is also true in the case of boys. While there is no doubt that men could do more at home, I have come to the conclusion through research, study and personal experience as a stay at home dad- who works from home, that my best use is as a father who is present for the main purpose of raising strong children. And while I’m happy to do my laundry and make meals etc it is by no means the best use of my time at home. Raising strong kids requires less time than house work, ie encouragement and the instilling of certain values etc (not to over simplify that role). Rather that demand for what you are calling ‘equal’, women should come to understand the best use men can have, help channel their energies in that direction and focus on having a happy, successful family rather than a ‘clean home’. Clean the house, let him take them out for icecream and be present with them. They’ll gain way more doing that than seeing him wipe the dinner table.
Oh dear, Vincent.... "And while I’m happy to do my laundry and make meals etc it is by no means the best use of my time at home." THIS is what women are talking about, my friend. When both parents work and there's a bunch of necessary work to do at home to feed, organize and clothe the family, it is just selfish to opt out. Both parents should get the time to be present for their children and both parents should contribute to all the other work. If you think otherwise, then you value yourself and your time more than you value your partner, which is what sexism has created in our world. Men have trouble seeing it because it doesn't affect them adversely, but that doesn't mean it's not very real.
Well put.
Are you serious??? I don't know a single woman who wouldn't jump at the choice to "take the kids out for ice cream" instead of "clean the house".
Also, I can pay someone to clean the house. It's all the work behind the scene, especially with kids. My husband would cook dinner - as long as I planned the meals, did the shopping, had everything ready in the frig.....
He would drive them to soccer - as long as I had correct color uniform washed and ready, made sure they had a substantial snack prior but not too close to time, reminded them to get ready, reminded my husband when it was time and who else he had to pick up yada yada.... My kids I could control and as they got older they took responsibility for all that. For my husband it was never more than jump in the car and have a fun drive to the soccer field. Some times it would have been easier to just drive them there myself than the time I spent making sure he was getting them out the door in time.
That's what gets exhausting - particularly when you have to listen to him brag about how *he* cooks dinner or how *he* takes the kids to soccer.
Perfect example of a man thinking his life and time >> any woman’s. Do your family a favor and wipe the d*mn table.
Ofcourse I do.
Vincent, really? Could you tell us what wpuld be the best use of a woman's time and how to maximize that? Say you do everyone's laundry, even hers and the kids so that she can focus on parenting. Also please make sure lunch is ready at noon. It's rough trying to parent well when you're also making lunch after all. Pick up some groceries too please, your kids' mother needs to spend quality time with them, for their wellbeing as adults, and grocery shopping with two and four year olds is difficult.
Hi Pam, because I’m home all day I get to see what a really tough job looking after a family and a home is and I do understand the need for more balanced responsibilities between partners as well as the attitude changes in men towards their contribution in certain aspects of family/ home life. I’m pretty much not typical as I do participate in all aspects of home life. It’s tough in these comments truly offer a balanced position. I sympathise with all women who have to go it almost solo. However, I do believe it would be easier to win this battle by educating our partners about their significance in the success of the family unit (beyond bringing money home). If it’s just simply about doing half the house work then not liking house work is a rational excuse not to do it. Again an over simplification. But I cook, I clean, educate my child, shop not because I love it but because I have come to realise how much more significant my contribution is than I could have imagined.
Vincent, I think I hear what you are trying to say here a bit more. You feel that men might feel more inclined to contribute if/when they understand that their contribution is so very important to the well-being of their children. You may be right, and I am really glad you have come to see that your role is crucial (because it is), but I hope you can appreciate that women have been trying to persuade men and get men's buy-in for a loooong time. At some point it starts to feel like you are making a case to a judge who gets to decide whether you are an equal human being, deserving of respect or not. That person supposedly loves you, but also clearly doesn't respect your time, energy, career or words enough to listen when you say something is deeply unfair, or to make some changes in response. I soooooo hope men are starting on a journey to discover how needed they are and how important their role is as a partner and as a father. I think everyone, including men, will be happier when that happens, but right now is pretty crappy for a lot of women.
I remember sitting in the therapist's office with my ex, listening to him talk, and realizing that all of my rosy hopes for improvement were fantasies not based on the relationship I was in. I'd been hanging in hoping that working on communicating my needs would make my well being important, when he just wanted me to shut up and keep pretending what he did was enough. I don't know how common it is, but he felt like a black hole of need that could never be filled, and when I couldn't do any more (3 kids!) he cut back the very little effort he was putting in.
Mary. This was exactly me in my marriage (now divorced). You are not alone. I always internalized it. And honestly, I would blame his parents for a lot of it. He was raised with a woman who did everything for him and then he met me. how could I expect him to change without me communicating how to change and helping? Until I had a therapist tell me: "the reality was (is) they're grown men. They were told a couple times as children to wipe their asses and they haven't forgotten. So if we tell them a few times to do their fair share, they should be. Period." And it changed my life.
We can raise this change, but our kids need to see men do the dishes and laundry. Reproductive labor is everything it takes to maintain the household, and if anyone blows it off, they are putting on someone else.
100% and having an extensive back catalogue of songs about "you are so difficult" (very often with a you=she context and almost always a straight male singer) for guys to passive aggressively play when you ask for more help is not helping. Thanks Roger Waters.
Provocative piece; thanks for writing. I definitely know heterosexual couples where I think separation is the only viable strategy. And: my experience doing this work with other men is that they (we) are desperate to build the competencies we were deliberately socialized not to cultivate... Including by the well-intentioned women in our lives (this Indian #ShareTheLoad campaign makes the point beautifully: https://youtu.be/8QDlv8kfwIM)
I'm actually much more hopeful. I think increasing numbers of men are willing to do the work, and looking for tools. Increasingly those tools exist. My own sense of these trends here, if of interest:
https://citizenstout.substack.com/p/why-does-patriarchy-persist-part-e2d
One more fresh off the presses; a new short video series called "Man Enough to Care": https://youtu.be/vY7VANn6Cm8
I can't stop thinking about this piece! I have so many thoughts. Mostly that I would love a think piece where men would have to answer for themselves. I think changing how we tell this story is a pretty brilliant idea!
This has to start with our sons. I have a feminist 31 year old and a husband who doesn't get it. But both of us worked equally hard and had to share the work when my son was little. He learned how to do his laundry at 10.
My teens can all do the things that a household needs done. I made sure they saw me do it, because we are all the household.
Thomas, hello!
*waves in boomer*
Beautifully written with so many excellent points. (Makes me doubly glad to be marrying a woman next year 😄)