I didn't even have to watch the video to know *that* laugh. It's the laugh boys used in high school to make fun of my shoes--not that I wore out of the ordinary shoes, but it was that I wore shoes at all to leave the kitchen was the joke, as were the sandwich jokes. That laugh was present, every time. At work is was the jokes about my hot tits. Again, *that* laugh.
Years later, someone confided to me that the male members of a professional network I joined sat around a bar to joke about women's body parts--I had the hottest legs--no one needed to describe that laugh. I knew it well. I know it was a part of the conversation even though I was not there. I think all women know that laugh.
As I can attest from hearing my mother's stories about her youth, growing up around this kind of institutionally accepted misogyny and violence (and even just the constant lurking threat of it) causes so much psychological damage that the fear and pain are passed right down the generations over and over again till you don't even understand why or how you were conditioned to freeze and tolerate this kind of talking and behavior around you. And worse. The things my mother has told me she's done or not done over her lifetime, without questioning herself, just make me so sad. The only upside is I have at least begun to understand why she was so cruel all my life. The damage was deep.
On the heels of your post, there was an article in today's Times about James Gunn, the director of the first Guardians of the Galaxy, Suicide Squad and other films. He was fired by Disney several years ago when his past tweets resurfaced. In the name of being "provocative" (his words, not mine), he made more than 10,000 jokes about rape, pedophilia, the Holocaust, etc. You get the drift. (Don't google them. They're awful.) And yet, here he is, on what amounts to an apology tour after posting his contrition.
I bring this up because while the guy didn't DO any of the things he joked about (at least, not to my knowledge), he had a pretty huge following on Twitter when he was posting this dreck. It's yet another example of what you're talking about here, the way toxic masculinity and patriarchy essentially get a pass because it's just part of the way business gets done.
Between Weinstein, Gunn, Armie Hammer, and the long, long list of flat out assholes in Hollywood, I feel like I have to keep a notebook to keep track of whose work I'm not watching anymore because I can't separate the artist from the art. I'm tired of wondering if what I'm seeing supports some misogynist, and it just seems like the list gets longer and longer every day.
Your observation is especially compelling... “So long as men enable misogyny - be it actively or passively - progress for women is doomed. And not just around sexual violence issues. The majority of ‘good’ men prop up sexism in all sorts of ways:” Thank you for pointing out our culpability and also for reminding us of our moral obligations. I concur and have shared on Twitter @ https://bit.ly/3eqj73h ... We've also encouraged our (young adult) daughters to speak up and not be intimidated. Most, but not all, "reasonable" men will back down when confronted... not sure it will have a lasting effect, but remaining silent is being complicit.
I have spent my career working in settings with all men (oilfield services and construction).
When I was 22 years old I was in a van with a crew of operators headed out to a well site. There were 8 or 9 grown men (ranging from early 20s to early 60s) and me in the van. We were on night shift (working 6pm to 6am) and it was two days before Christmas – meaning it was dark and getting darker. I was in the front passenger seat of the van. One of the older men was “joking” around about how it would be fun to be a serial killer and then said “or a serial rapist”. I turned around and said “you can’t say things like that” and he responded “why not?” with this weird fake innocent voice I can still hear in my head. I stared at him for a couple seconds, did not reply and turned back forward, the joking stopped. Not a single other man in the van said a word.
Not more than two minutes later the van was waiting to turn left and a woman was out running and was hit by another vehicle making a right turn down the same street we were waiting to turn down. Several people in my van saw the accident – however I was the only one who jumped out of the van and ran across the street.
This December it will have been ten years since that night – but my body still tenses and I feel physically scared for my safety when I think about it.
I have commented to a small subset of people (other women and my husband) about the underlying low level, but continuous stress that comes from working as a woman in a heavily male dominated field. I don’t know that I’ve ever captured it as well as this article – so thank you.
I am so sorry this was a foundational experience for you. Writing about it and discussing it openly can only help temper those guttural reactions. You are woman, you are strong.
I don't know if sharing made you feel even a little bit better but I hope so. Those like you in heavily male dominated fields see more than other women are seeing, and it's ugly, and it's scary. And I'm sure the stress is detrimental to your health. Take care.
It's striking how little progress has been made over generations. Is there a way to stop rewarding abusive behavior? Men at all levels of the social hierarchy engage in misogyny. But it seems to me that the higher up they are, the more it matters, because it sends the message to everyone below that there are no consequences, or even that it's beneficial. One Brett Kavanaugh is worth millions of 'ordinary' men doing the same thing. How do you replace the patriarchy? It would be nice if men were just better people. But I'm not sure how much changes until misogyny becomes clearly detrimental to a man's prospects :-(
That's a really good point. I wrote an article once about Harvey Weinstein and the idea of red flags - like, everyone knew he was an abusive boss and people started asking questions about why is it that all these guys at the top ended up being outed by MeToo. And the thing is: it's not that they got to the top and all of a sudden became abusers. They rose in the ranks BECAUSE they were abusive and that's what we've been taught makes a man a leader!
"BECAUSE they were abusive and that's what we've been taught makes a man a leader" -- just watch all those old hollywood movies, the "classics." I've been making myself watch them all, just to show myself how saturated they all are, how the repeated watching of the same set of traits and actions become a lesson in how to be a man or a woman. It's infuriating to watch Katherine Hepburn get pushed around and gaslighted by Spencer Tracy and then see their characters elevated to examples of perfect romance. Again and again, the men who are brutal and aggressive are held up as the "real men."
Yes, we need strong examples of a different kind of leadership. I'm cautiously optimistic about that, but it's going to take time for good behavior to reinforce good behavior.
Very long post again; sorry. Feel very free not to read.
I was one of those men in my twenties and early thirties. Not the ones who joked and laughed but I was too timid to act, so I told myself (not even convincing myself) I was doing something by pointedly not laughing - and the few times I did speak up it was among people I knew would not beat me up for my trouble.
So yes, I was a coward. I was afraid* and didn't consider nearly enough that if I was afraid of these men, then how would women feel?
I'm not suggesting I - or any one guy - should always speak out; there is so much feral male aggression, especially when they are in a group, having 'fun', that it would not be responsible to tell everyone to say something in every situation.
Still, I could, and should, have done more in my younger years (I'm nearly 60 now) and I knew that; I was also raised much, much better, as they say.
Having written the bit about the potential physical danger of speaking out: there is never any excuse not to do so in ANY other circumstances.
I was very lucky that my only regular work was for an organisation where the workforce was about 50-50% men/women, and two of the three managers I had were women - so my courage and conscience were never tested there. By then I was ten years older, and much less afraid in general, so I think I would have acted, if I would have had to - but I never had to, so that's easy** to say.
*Not to totally beat myself up here, I was always uncomfortable in groups, especially male ones, and I avoided them where I could; I felt unsafe even when the group was having harmless fun, because I never trusted 'men + drink + fun'.
**Still, I kind of run on guilt, and I still feel guilty about each time I didn't do enough. So, I think I would indeed have done better age 40-57. Guilt, and the fear of more guilt, can be a great motivator, sometimes.
Thanks for sharing this - I don't think you should call yourself a coward, tho! The patriarchy hurts men, too - and that fear of potential physical danger is a big part of it. I think everyone needs to gauge and prioritize their own safety in situations. Always. That said, I wonder if one solution when men feel like they can't speak out safely is leaving and making clear the sexism is why. Because I do think every little bit helps and something as simple as: "I'm not comfortable with this," or a disgusted look and walking out could be helpful? Just brainstorming
Ah. I forgot. I did do that when I was younger: leaving a cluster of men at bars & parties the moment the joking started. Not waiting for the joke to be finished but just nodding at that small group and moving away... but that was risk free and I don't think it ever stopped anyone from finishing a joke. Still, at least I did that much/little.
You are right though: the patriarchy poisons men - but if you are a heterosexual Western guy, it's a poison that eats at your soul; it can and does hurt & kill men too but not as violently and often and sudden as it kills and hurts women.
I wonder though if the problem is to what extent a man's propensity to feminism might be inversely related to his social stature. Men who post here probably aren't the alphas. So how much does what we say or do matter? Maybe I'm making it too animalistic, I don't know; research on this would be useful here.
It's an interesting point. It does depend on your definition of alpha male. If it is 'Someone who thrives in a patriarchal/misogynist setting, then alpha males will stay part of the problem.
If the definition is 'A person who will thrive in the society he happens to be a part of, then an alpha male will be a feminist in a feminist society.
On the whole, I'm pretty old school where feminism is concerned: change (and uphold!) the laws/rules and behaviour will change first and then hearts and minds will follow eventually.
We have seen with drink driving that nothing changes if you don't shock the system (and the people) into changing. If you have and uphold tough laws, then you can start working on awareness campaigns. The other way around doesn't work.
So we need very strict and enforced work rules. Make a misogynist (or other hate) joke* and you are demoted, or get your pay docked; do it again and you're fired. Make a joke like that in a bar and you get kicked out. If the bar manager doesn't kick someone like that out, the bar gets fined - et cetera.
People will first stop their behaviour out of fear; but soon enough it will just be the way the vast majority will (not) act.
This is not complicated. Change the law/rules and people will change their behaviour.
The fact we don't do that is just another reminder that the patriarchy will not abolish itself.
*not even talking here about groping and worse, because that would be a firing offence and a criminal prosecution.)
Yes, we're having difficulty right now with changing the laws and the rules, especially in my country (the U.S.) It's what all of American politics boils down to - those who want change for the better versus those who resist it with every fibre of their being. And the resisters indicate they are quite open to using coercion, which the other side has shied away from in the hope that right will beat might.
That's interesting, Zach - I don't know that I agree (tho I also am not really into the whole alpha/beta thing). I think about my husband a lot, for example. He's someone who has always been very comfortable in his skin and has a lot of presence and such, and I think that traditionally male confidence allowed him to embrace feminism without worrying about what other people thought etc.
That said, I think no matter someone's social stature, saying something matters. Because in social situations, even if other people in the group respond negatively or act as if they don't care - being called out is something they will remember the next time they go to tell a rape joke, or make a racist comment. They may not realize it consciously, but it sticks with them
Haha, Jessica, I think about your husband too! When I read your articles, I think, that's great, but what are the MEN doing about it? Because women can bang their head against the wall over and over and make very little progress unless the men change. I'll try to take comfort in your point that no act is too small!
I can relate to your comment, as I too was in engineering as a non-trad single mom… and had to endure this type of behavior regularly. Interestingly, and not surprisingly, my male, Muslim peers who did not partake and would often leave when this banter would start. Guilty? Who knows, I sure felt safer when I was with them after class.
I should hope that every mother in this thread opens up discussion with their sons on this topic. I know I will with my 20 and 27 year old sons.
Honestly shout YES to everything you write! Thank you!
I didn't even have to watch the video to know *that* laugh. It's the laugh boys used in high school to make fun of my shoes--not that I wore out of the ordinary shoes, but it was that I wore shoes at all to leave the kitchen was the joke, as were the sandwich jokes. That laugh was present, every time. At work is was the jokes about my hot tits. Again, *that* laugh.
Years later, someone confided to me that the male members of a professional network I joined sat around a bar to joke about women's body parts--I had the hottest legs--no one needed to describe that laugh. I knew it well. I know it was a part of the conversation even though I was not there. I think all women know that laugh.
As I can attest from hearing my mother's stories about her youth, growing up around this kind of institutionally accepted misogyny and violence (and even just the constant lurking threat of it) causes so much psychological damage that the fear and pain are passed right down the generations over and over again till you don't even understand why or how you were conditioned to freeze and tolerate this kind of talking and behavior around you. And worse. The things my mother has told me she's done or not done over her lifetime, without questioning herself, just make me so sad. The only upside is I have at least begun to understand why she was so cruel all my life. The damage was deep.
On the heels of your post, there was an article in today's Times about James Gunn, the director of the first Guardians of the Galaxy, Suicide Squad and other films. He was fired by Disney several years ago when his past tweets resurfaced. In the name of being "provocative" (his words, not mine), he made more than 10,000 jokes about rape, pedophilia, the Holocaust, etc. You get the drift. (Don't google them. They're awful.) And yet, here he is, on what amounts to an apology tour after posting his contrition.
I bring this up because while the guy didn't DO any of the things he joked about (at least, not to my knowledge), he had a pretty huge following on Twitter when he was posting this dreck. It's yet another example of what you're talking about here, the way toxic masculinity and patriarchy essentially get a pass because it's just part of the way business gets done.
Between Weinstein, Gunn, Armie Hammer, and the long, long list of flat out assholes in Hollywood, I feel like I have to keep a notebook to keep track of whose work I'm not watching anymore because I can't separate the artist from the art. I'm tired of wondering if what I'm seeing supports some misogynist, and it just seems like the list gets longer and longer every day.
Your observation is especially compelling... “So long as men enable misogyny - be it actively or passively - progress for women is doomed. And not just around sexual violence issues. The majority of ‘good’ men prop up sexism in all sorts of ways:” Thank you for pointing out our culpability and also for reminding us of our moral obligations. I concur and have shared on Twitter @ https://bit.ly/3eqj73h ... We've also encouraged our (young adult) daughters to speak up and not be intimidated. Most, but not all, "reasonable" men will back down when confronted... not sure it will have a lasting effect, but remaining silent is being complicit.
I have spent my career working in settings with all men (oilfield services and construction).
When I was 22 years old I was in a van with a crew of operators headed out to a well site. There were 8 or 9 grown men (ranging from early 20s to early 60s) and me in the van. We were on night shift (working 6pm to 6am) and it was two days before Christmas – meaning it was dark and getting darker. I was in the front passenger seat of the van. One of the older men was “joking” around about how it would be fun to be a serial killer and then said “or a serial rapist”. I turned around and said “you can’t say things like that” and he responded “why not?” with this weird fake innocent voice I can still hear in my head. I stared at him for a couple seconds, did not reply and turned back forward, the joking stopped. Not a single other man in the van said a word.
Not more than two minutes later the van was waiting to turn left and a woman was out running and was hit by another vehicle making a right turn down the same street we were waiting to turn down. Several people in my van saw the accident – however I was the only one who jumped out of the van and ran across the street.
This December it will have been ten years since that night – but my body still tenses and I feel physically scared for my safety when I think about it.
I have commented to a small subset of people (other women and my husband) about the underlying low level, but continuous stress that comes from working as a woman in a heavily male dominated field. I don’t know that I’ve ever captured it as well as this article – so thank you.
I am so sorry this was a foundational experience for you. Writing about it and discussing it openly can only help temper those guttural reactions. You are woman, you are strong.
I'm so sorry, that sounds just awful. I think a lot of us have had moments like that. It's terrible
I don't know if sharing made you feel even a little bit better but I hope so. Those like you in heavily male dominated fields see more than other women are seeing, and it's ugly, and it's scary. And I'm sure the stress is detrimental to your health. Take care.
It's striking how little progress has been made over generations. Is there a way to stop rewarding abusive behavior? Men at all levels of the social hierarchy engage in misogyny. But it seems to me that the higher up they are, the more it matters, because it sends the message to everyone below that there are no consequences, or even that it's beneficial. One Brett Kavanaugh is worth millions of 'ordinary' men doing the same thing. How do you replace the patriarchy? It would be nice if men were just better people. But I'm not sure how much changes until misogyny becomes clearly detrimental to a man's prospects :-(
That's a really good point. I wrote an article once about Harvey Weinstein and the idea of red flags - like, everyone knew he was an abusive boss and people started asking questions about why is it that all these guys at the top ended up being outed by MeToo. And the thing is: it's not that they got to the top and all of a sudden became abusers. They rose in the ranks BECAUSE they were abusive and that's what we've been taught makes a man a leader!
So yes, we need to stop venerating abusiveness or aggressiveness as a leadership quality or sign of power. (Here's the piece: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/04/sexual-harassers-rise-ranks-red-flag)
"BECAUSE they were abusive and that's what we've been taught makes a man a leader" -- just watch all those old hollywood movies, the "classics." I've been making myself watch them all, just to show myself how saturated they all are, how the repeated watching of the same set of traits and actions become a lesson in how to be a man or a woman. It's infuriating to watch Katherine Hepburn get pushed around and gaslighted by Spencer Tracy and then see their characters elevated to examples of perfect romance. Again and again, the men who are brutal and aggressive are held up as the "real men."
Yes, we need strong examples of a different kind of leadership. I'm cautiously optimistic about that, but it's going to take time for good behavior to reinforce good behavior.
Very long post again; sorry. Feel very free not to read.
I was one of those men in my twenties and early thirties. Not the ones who joked and laughed but I was too timid to act, so I told myself (not even convincing myself) I was doing something by pointedly not laughing - and the few times I did speak up it was among people I knew would not beat me up for my trouble.
So yes, I was a coward. I was afraid* and didn't consider nearly enough that if I was afraid of these men, then how would women feel?
I'm not suggesting I - or any one guy - should always speak out; there is so much feral male aggression, especially when they are in a group, having 'fun', that it would not be responsible to tell everyone to say something in every situation.
Still, I could, and should, have done more in my younger years (I'm nearly 60 now) and I knew that; I was also raised much, much better, as they say.
Having written the bit about the potential physical danger of speaking out: there is never any excuse not to do so in ANY other circumstances.
I was very lucky that my only regular work was for an organisation where the workforce was about 50-50% men/women, and two of the three managers I had were women - so my courage and conscience were never tested there. By then I was ten years older, and much less afraid in general, so I think I would have acted, if I would have had to - but I never had to, so that's easy** to say.
*Not to totally beat myself up here, I was always uncomfortable in groups, especially male ones, and I avoided them where I could; I felt unsafe even when the group was having harmless fun, because I never trusted 'men + drink + fun'.
**Still, I kind of run on guilt, and I still feel guilty about each time I didn't do enough. So, I think I would indeed have done better age 40-57. Guilt, and the fear of more guilt, can be a great motivator, sometimes.
Thanks for sharing this - I don't think you should call yourself a coward, tho! The patriarchy hurts men, too - and that fear of potential physical danger is a big part of it. I think everyone needs to gauge and prioritize their own safety in situations. Always. That said, I wonder if one solution when men feel like they can't speak out safely is leaving and making clear the sexism is why. Because I do think every little bit helps and something as simple as: "I'm not comfortable with this," or a disgusted look and walking out could be helpful? Just brainstorming
Ah. I forgot. I did do that when I was younger: leaving a cluster of men at bars & parties the moment the joking started. Not waiting for the joke to be finished but just nodding at that small group and moving away... but that was risk free and I don't think it ever stopped anyone from finishing a joke. Still, at least I did that much/little.
You are right though: the patriarchy poisons men - but if you are a heterosexual Western guy, it's a poison that eats at your soul; it can and does hurt & kill men too but not as violently and often and sudden as it kills and hurts women.
I wonder though if the problem is to what extent a man's propensity to feminism might be inversely related to his social stature. Men who post here probably aren't the alphas. So how much does what we say or do matter? Maybe I'm making it too animalistic, I don't know; research on this would be useful here.
It's an interesting point. It does depend on your definition of alpha male. If it is 'Someone who thrives in a patriarchal/misogynist setting, then alpha males will stay part of the problem.
If the definition is 'A person who will thrive in the society he happens to be a part of, then an alpha male will be a feminist in a feminist society.
On the whole, I'm pretty old school where feminism is concerned: change (and uphold!) the laws/rules and behaviour will change first and then hearts and minds will follow eventually.
We have seen with drink driving that nothing changes if you don't shock the system (and the people) into changing. If you have and uphold tough laws, then you can start working on awareness campaigns. The other way around doesn't work.
So we need very strict and enforced work rules. Make a misogynist (or other hate) joke* and you are demoted, or get your pay docked; do it again and you're fired. Make a joke like that in a bar and you get kicked out. If the bar manager doesn't kick someone like that out, the bar gets fined - et cetera.
People will first stop their behaviour out of fear; but soon enough it will just be the way the vast majority will (not) act.
This is not complicated. Change the law/rules and people will change their behaviour.
The fact we don't do that is just another reminder that the patriarchy will not abolish itself.
*not even talking here about groping and worse, because that would be a firing offence and a criminal prosecution.)
Yes, we're having difficulty right now with changing the laws and the rules, especially in my country (the U.S.) It's what all of American politics boils down to - those who want change for the better versus those who resist it with every fibre of their being. And the resisters indicate they are quite open to using coercion, which the other side has shied away from in the hope that right will beat might.
That's interesting, Zach - I don't know that I agree (tho I also am not really into the whole alpha/beta thing). I think about my husband a lot, for example. He's someone who has always been very comfortable in his skin and has a lot of presence and such, and I think that traditionally male confidence allowed him to embrace feminism without worrying about what other people thought etc.
That said, I think no matter someone's social stature, saying something matters. Because in social situations, even if other people in the group respond negatively or act as if they don't care - being called out is something they will remember the next time they go to tell a rape joke, or make a racist comment. They may not realize it consciously, but it sticks with them
Haha, Jessica, I think about your husband too! When I read your articles, I think, that's great, but what are the MEN doing about it? Because women can bang their head against the wall over and over and make very little progress unless the men change. I'll try to take comfort in your point that no act is too small!
I have a penis, and I approve this message. Please keep up the fight, Ms. Valenti!
Ha!
I should have kept it this short.
I can relate to your comment, as I too was in engineering as a non-trad single mom… and had to endure this type of behavior regularly. Interestingly, and not surprisingly, my male, Muslim peers who did not partake and would often leave when this banter would start. Guilty? Who knows, I sure felt safer when I was with them after class.
I should hope that every mother in this thread opens up discussion with their sons on this topic. I know I will with my 20 and 27 year old sons.
I am glad we are talking about this.