As lots of you know, I’m obsessed with Am I An Asshole? on Reddit and what it says about American sexism. This latest post - from a teenager concerned that she was too mean to a 50-something male co-worker who asked for her phone number (!!!) - got me pretty fired up.
I thought about all the times I was too nice because I was taught to be, and how in the world I can teach my 10-year old daughter to be…well, a little bit bitchier.
How did you unlearn niceness? Experiences and advice welcome in comments!
I have found a new cesspit that highlights the gender disparity with heartbreaking honesty. It's r/breakingmoms and if you want to see the reality of the impact of the pandemic on mothers, you won't find a better place.
Boundaries. It's ok to say no. And, teach her that she'll say no many many more times then she'll say yes. And, that's ok. Bc, who and what we let in ought to align with who and what we value. Help her know herself. Help her understand and value her own ideas, opinions, body, spirit, and taste in food, art, music, movies, books, etc. People crave validation. Help her develop an evolving narrative of herself. We don't need to take in every stray dog, or stray man, or stray anything, just bc it's crosses our path and decides they "like" us. Having some kind of sense of ourselves and our boundaries, helps us say no to what doesn't align with us and yes to what does.
I didn't really. I had to redirect the niceness towards myself. Learning boundaries and sticking to them has been re-worked in my mind as being nice to me because I deserve that.
My mother was not all the "nice." She didn't care that much about whether people liked her or not--therefore, neither did I. She didn't talk much at all about how I should be, but showed me by example.
If I now had a daughter the age of yours, I hope I would do things differently, prepare her better. Maybe mother-daughter self-defense classes. Reading books together to encourage open discussions of “what would you do if”. Practicing mature decision making like we practice any other skill. The intent would not be to make her more anxious and fearful but to give her confidence in her ability to cope, to think ahead and be prepared to pull out of her arsenal the most beneficial response.
I would also teach her to be aware of the long term consequences of her actions. We can be firm and assertive without defaulting to attack. Look where aggression has got the world so far. One mean remark may seem inconsequential, but keep piling mean on mean and what happens to how that person sees their place in the world? It isn’t weak to be courteous, even to be kind, to see the other as a person, to give them an answer you both can live with. I don’t think society becomes better by encouraging meanness. There is a middle ground between being nicely compliant and being a complete bitch. I would say civilization depends on us finding that middle ground.
I'm so happy to see a few comments on the difference between "nice" and kind." About twenty years ago on a different message board system, someone posted the distinction and it's stayed with me ever since.
I'm not nice, not anymore. Kind, yes. Helpful, considerate, sure. But I don't do nice anymore, and I especially don't do nice when someone is persistent about denying my boundaries. This AITA seriously pissed me off, and I'm so glad that there were A LOT of others who saw the same thing.
How do we unlearn being nice? I think some of it comes down to learning to care more about our own feelings and safety than what others think of us. As women, we're conditioned to go along to get along at a very early age. Share your toys, share your snack, give up the thing that matters to you so someone else isn't put out. We're constantly taught to yield. Before long, we're going in reverse to try to keep from offending anyone.
Maybe the thing to begin doing with your daughter is to start dissecting who or what will change by her doing things one way ("nicely") vs another way ("not so nicely")? Role play it. Teach her to tolerate feeling okay with saying no, with standing her ground. Some kids are really good at this from the get go, others need to learn it.
Last thing; a friend likes to remind me "The rules are fake." Being nice? Fake rule. Worrying about what others think of us? Fake rule. Worrying about offending someone? Fake rule. Worrying about not being liked? Definitely a fake rule. If someone doesn't like me for being my real authentic self, that's fine. It's a helluva lot better than me not liking me for being inauthentic and fake.
Nice v kind is the most important distinction I’ve found, but in the unlearning of things I think it’s difficult to make that calculation. Some of the hesitancy of young girls is from the fear of being unliked, (esp middle school, which is gender-neutral in its cruelty!) but I would argue a lot of it is seen as doors closing on future opportunities or relationships. You don’t want to *ruin* anything. And some of that is an ingrained sense of who makes the decisions and who runs the world. (Men!) If we can unlearn, or unteach I guess, the prevailing idea of male power, we are freed to make our own distinctions in the moment.
I decided I might as well “ruin everything,” long ago. Looking back, I realize I was involuntarily “not-nice” quite often (was discussing some amusing times I simply spoke up against injustices with a friend tonight), which certainly did close doors to me. But did I really want to go through those doors? My life would be so different today if I had. And as for these days, I figure people will find out sooner or later who I really am, and some won’t like me, and I not only don’t want to work with them anyway, but also, probably would never please them no matter how I tried to fake it. No, I prefer to “ruin everything,” and either build my own niche and create my own center of gravity, or, failing that, find my people, as hard as it may be, and as long as it may take. It is definitely not easy, but neither is being nice all the time and making myself sick, physically and mentally, from the effort and collateral damage.
I have an 11 year old daughter and I get it. I am a 66 year old physician so I have been in the game a while. I think the way we teach our daughters to be a bit bitchier is help them to recognize the cultural patterns that say it's ok for a guy to be "forthright", but not for a gal....in fact the girl gets shamed for it, and the guy gets honored. Important to see this patriarchal cultural pattern. Next is to reinforce speaking up for yourself everyday.
As a kid, I was obsessed with 'Into the Woods,' and a line in there is "nice is different than good." That made a lot of sense to me as a kid and still does now. As a tomboy who grew up into a masculine-of-center woman, I find I occupy a space that is frequently free of the sort of sexism described in that AITA post. As such, I try to harness energy into teaching my female-identifying students (I teach HS) strategies for navigating toxic male energy. I've been struck by how pervasive notions of 'the friend zone' are, and that young women truly allow themselves to feel bad about "putting someone in the friend zone." It makes them feel as though they haven't been nice. It's distressing. I will often ask them, "can you think of a time a boy did the same thing? did they feel this bad about it?" It is an uphill and ongoing challenge. They learn it all when they are so, so, so young.
In the last two years, I talked with a lot of people who broke up with their girl/boyfriends, and we began discussing the phrase, “just friends” and decided that WTF does “just” mean? Like, merely? Like lesser than otherwise sexually involved? No, we decided: no such thing as “just friends” anymore, because friends will stick with you after you break up, or are dumped. Friends are better! So, we decided to try saying, “Just my girl/boyfriend/lover,” or “just going out with them” or even “just sleeping together” from now on. I have dropped “just friends” from my vocabulary. Friends is definitely better than a girl/boyfriend or lover.
Work in progress!! For me I think it was learning that there are things that are absolutely unacceptable to me, regardless of who they come from. I was definitely brought up with the whole 'respect your elders' concept, but without being taught or made to feel that I should be respected and have autonomy over myself as well. I realized much later that even as a teenager I should have been able to feel like my boundaries mattered... but I didn't know how to express when something made me uncomfortable. Sometimes I still don't...
In the frame of being nice, it feels more like staying quiet and deferring to others with more "power" than you and... uh, no thank you on that.
Learning about boundaries and consent were so important, and also how be mindful of and respect the boundaries of others.
Let's face it, we're "nice" to protect ourselves from harm. We're often terrified to incite male anger (or even female anger in some cases, as I have, growing up). Our lessening of niceness needs to be collective. When one of us has the courage to not be "too nice," it's easier for the rest of us. We need to be examples to each other, and aspire to be like the bravest/kindest amongst us.
Oh, and on the professional front, I just want to say that I was providing artwork to an upstate magazine for a while, and they decided they needed fresh blood, so they asked me if I knew any other artists who'd do the same as I did, and just as I was on the verge of saying, "yes," and suggesting some, I held back and said, "Yes, but if you want me to get them for you, you can make me an art editor." And they did. And I was SO damn proud of myself. I told everyone I knew, because, like I said below, if you do it, you give permission to others to do it. Meaning, if you're not too nice. Being too nice never got me anywhere.
Somebody has probably already said this but I live by the mantra, "Take no shit, but do no harm." I can't even remember where I read that but it really resonated with me. I try for that but it's hard to unlearn a lifetime of being told to be nice.
Years ago I had a weird incident with a man while waiting in line with my children. He was really bothered that he had to wait behind us and kept making jokes about it and touched my back a few times. I was a little polite at first and then I just ignored him. I didn't even tell him to not touch me. He felt a little sinister and I hate confrontation. I think sometimes being nice is also a defense/survival mechanism. I told my kids afterward how much he bothered me and that I had a right to tell him but just couldn't because I was worried it could devolve into something worse. I felt like a deer in headlights and just wanted to order our food and get away from him. Listen to your instincts even if they are wrong. Your safety is more important than someone else's comfort!
It is horrible that we have to fear bodily harm. I once asked a guy in the cafe where I worked not to hand me the coffee urn when it was empty and to just please let me know it was empty and I'd have someone take care of it and he went so ballistic in such an insane way (accusing me of not liking him, of constantly telling him what to do, i had obviously triggered some weird misogynistic grudge he had against women in general), that I was actually afraid to leave by the front door when I went home. In fact, I realized afterwards that I'd pointed him out to the barista much earlier and said that if anyone would come shoot up the cafe on a grudge it would be him, which was frightening. Yes ,we have to be careful.
It took me working in a cafe and noticing that when men did the same job I did (working at the counter, taking orders from customers), they smiled and apologized less and it didn't seem to bother the customers AT ALL. Whereas if the young women did the same, they'd be treated as "bitches." So, first I decided I wouldn't smile or apologize more than the men did. THEN, it just got easier. I basically weaned myself off super-niceness (and yes, probably at the cost of tips, but I didn't care, and most of the other young women were on board with this, too, even though we never made a collective decision. We were known for "being rude," our boss told us, ha ha. But somehow we got away with it.) Little by little, I just took it down a notch. And then one day one of the young women -- I mean younger than me by like 25 years! -- told me how she'd told one of the guys who provided service to the cafe that his constant commenting about her appearance made her uncomfortable, and that he'd agreed to stop it, and I realized it could be as easy as that. I mean, not everyone will take it well, I'll acknowledge that. But when one woman says it, it gives everyone around her permission to try it, too, especially if it works. So, inspired by her, I began to be more outspoken about my feelings about being physically appraised (whether positively or negatively) all the time, and encouraging my colleagues and friends to do the same.
I had already been inspiring them with my responses to men who flirted with me at the counter when I was on break. Their favorite thing I did was when men would say, "hey we should go on a hike sometime," I'd responde, "I HATE HIKES." Ha ha ha ha. Guys never see that coming. They just assume you'll be so happy they're asking you out (safely and ambiguously) that you'll go out and buy bug spray and hiking boots whether you like it or not. It's like the big pickup line upstate, where I lived for five years. My coworkers would be listening in, and waiting to see how I responded, and I was glad to experiment for them.
Yeah, it takes a while and it takes practice, but I am now a bona fide NOT NICE GIRL.
I’m in my 40s and I’m still learning how to navigate this. I think a lot of it is wrapped up in self-esteem: I can be a terrible people-pleaser, all stemming from a deep fear that people won’t like me. As my self-esteem improves, I’m finding that I care less and less about what people think. It’s refreshing.
I would also agree with those who have already posted that age and experience helps a great deal as well. When you’re nice to people and they still treat you badly, or even take advantage of you, you learn, even if it’s the hard way,
I am 38 and still struggle terribly with this, although age and a career change have helped. Part of the problem—trying to live as an artist—my job was to sell myself, which for me, is easy to confuse with niceness. Men often mistake my niceness with flirting, which has often lead to uncomfortable power dynamics, where I’ve felt like saying ‘no’ or shaming bad behavior could put my livelihood (and reputation) in jeopardy. In my 20s (in Los Angeles), I never knew “who" I was in contact with—"this could be the wealthy collector who could make my dreams come true!” is how I approached each interaction. I worked a side job serving in restaurants to support my creative pursuits. My regular paycheck also depended on being nice (tipping) and allowing people to often be more inappropriate than normal. I once had an older male customer who was very drunk and inappropriate. My boss was horrified at what I told him at the end of my shift and asked me if the guy should be 86’ed (banned from the restaurant), and I said “no, it’s fine, he left me a huge tip!” And I meant it. The amount this abusive customer tipped me was greater than the sum of the rest of my tips that night—so of course it was OK to be treated like that! I even jumped at the opportunity to serve him the next time he came in, hoping for another big tip (alas, this plan failed as he tipped the customary 20%, despite me being SO NICE)!
I read about that young painter (Maria Farmer) that was manipulated by Epstein. That would have been me in a heartbeat. Eager to please, completely broke, and looking for a break. There seems to be a network of people who prey on the niceness of young women. I'm quite sad for my younger self. Being so nice didn't benefit me, mostly it gave away my power. Perhaps it is all the accumulated micro abuses over the years that contribute to us “taking less shit” and lead to defining clearer boundaries as we age. At least that seems to be true for me!
I learned it later in life through exhaustion and honestly my PMDD - I observed that when I was just all tapped out and couldn't be bothered to "make nice" suddenly, things got done by others faster or behavior I didn't like stopped short. I could see a much more direct line between me speaking my unvarnished truth and results. I confess, I like to be nice when I can be and feels authentic, but I know at any time I can simplify and get down to it. Boundaries that confirm my autonomy and trust in myself have a wonderful way of reinforcing themselves. It took way too long for this to become clear for me and I wish I had been encouraged earlier in ways that aligned with my love of kindness and clarity.
One day I realized that my PMS bitchiness got rid of jerks in my life, and I began to realize that PMS might be a gift. It made me suffer no fools. It's not like I lost anyone I liked, if you know what I mean. I just lost the jerks. Or quit the right bad jobs.
Right!? Total gift that I undersold and tried to tamp down for years. Now I thank it when I find myself benefiting from the more blunt approach. I have to remind myself to appreciate it though as there is still a very strong tendency to need to make nice, or explain my tone, or a thousand other qualifiers. But I really try not to dim the shine of me looking out for me.
I unlearned niceness by going to law school and becoming a litigator. By the time I burnt out, I had reduced a male opposing counsel to tears during a simple phone call. I do NOT recommend this method. Side effects for me included severe career burnout & $100k in student loans & weight gain (law the most sedentary career with super long hours, and in my case, comfort eating).
The trick for me was to just litigate for a few years, and then go do other, nicer things. (Legal writing is still sedentary, but I get to pet my cats whenever I want.)
My mother was tough as nails, and while she was not exactly a loving or supportive parent and this left me emotionally stunted in other ways, it also spared me from the social conditioning a lot of girls are subjected to, and it's not an overstatement to say this quite possibly saved my life more than once. One day when I was about 11 I was walking home from school and a man pulled up to me. He was crying and going on about his lost dog, how distraught he was and how he needed me to get in and help him search, since he couldn't drive and scan the road at the same time. He paced after me, crying, begging, going on and on. I don't recall feeling scared; no "stranger danger" alarm bells were going off in my head. But I had homework to do and tv shows I wanted to watch and I was hungry and the way this guy was crying and carrying on made me uncomfortable and I didn't feel like helping. Also why was he bugging some random kid instead of friends or family? I felt zero qualms saying no, and casually continued on my way. As I've gotten older, I've realized this ability is a superpower, and I've spent a lot of time badgering (with love!) my AFAB friends to unlearn the social conditioning to be deferential and sweet to men.
As others have pointed out- the difference between nice and kind is huge. I have made this point about New Yorkers at lot- New Yorkers might not be "nice" but when I lived in Manhattan I saw random acts of kindness every day. Strangers helping each other carry a stroller up stairs in the subway because the elevator was broken, paying for the next guy's coffee just because, endlessly giving directions to the lost, buying an extra umbrella from the stand on the corner for the person getting soaked. "Nice" is meaningless and often a cover for cruelty. Kindness is everything.
Yaaaay this makes me happy. It makes me giggle too; "sorry to interrupt your textbook kidnapping scenario sir but I have math to finish before my shows are on and I need a snack." I know dark humor is not for everyone but it keeps me alive.
I had a similar experience eluding a guy in Italy at a fashion party who was determined that me and a bunch of other girls at a party accompany him and them to a boat party, and as he insisted on me going with them, and I kept saying I needed to get home to sleep because I had to work in the morning, I remember thinking, "Is he crazy? Why does he think I have to obey him? He must be deluded about his power over me." I had no sense of danger (which I would have, if I knew about those parties at the time), I just thought he was insane to think he could boss me around, so I said I'd meet him outside and when I got outside I literally ran and hid behind a car a half a block away. I heard him looking for me, and even saw him look under a few cars! When he gave up, I walked back to my hostel. Ten years later, I heard about how those parties always ended up in rape parties with the people from Elite modeling agency (I was one of those models, at the party), and how if drugged drinks didn't work, they'd literally hit models over the head to knock them out and rape them. I was lucky I was just stubborn and clueless.
You know what’s odd? I was actually scared but it was by his assumption that he could dominate me; the audacity of him thinking he could override my decision made me think he must be crazy and therefore dangerous was what scared me more than anything I could imagine him doing to me. It was almost like that “you’re not my mother” moment I had on the first day of school in the first grade. I’m glad I didn’t bend to his will like I did to Mrs Metviner after she bellowed at me to sit down at my desk!
I realized in my mid 20's that I would rather have total control over my life and body than be liked. And that all the rage I felt when guys treated me more like a doll than a human was a natural response to being treated like I didn't matter and was just there for their amusement. That realization was life altering, and I wish I had come to it earlier.
You can't unlearn niceness but you can say that somethings require a firm no response. My daughter is not nice and I'm trying to get her a little nicer. Your case I would talk with your daughter and explain that an older man asking for her contact information is a reason to be firm and say no way.
I feel like I am constantly struggling to find an appropriate balance between niceness and not giving into an instinct to be cruel/mean to someone when they keep trying to push/guilt/manipulate me. I'm mostly easy-going but can have a very 'fight fire with fire and I will win' instinct.
My current example, weighing heavily on my mind today, is a discussion/fight my husband and I find ourselves in with his sister, who wants to do a multi-family beach trip in August. We said 'sounds super fun, and if all the adults in attendance are vaccinated, we're totally in. otherwise, we can't self-isolate prior to a trip and we'll have to count ourselves in.'
We have since been told we are making political parenting choices that prevent her from being the aunt she wants to be. That COVID is here to stay and mRNA vaccines may never be approved in children so we might as well be telling her she won't see our daughter until she's an adult. And that we've made her feel dirty and contagious multiple times throughout this pandemic (we've seen her several times, but outside and no close contact. Our daughter is 17-months now and was 6 months when this started, so I get that a lot of family missed prime baby snuggles time. If we could have asked for the pandemic to hold off until she was older, we would have, sorry my dudes). Since we are bringing our kid to daycare (I'm an essential local government employee who has worked mostly in my office throughout the pandemic with a few weeks from home in May of last year, and my husband is an IT professional who also has to go into the office a few days a week) we've already opened ourselves up to risk and so we should be fine with more riskl.
We tried to explain our rationale and that as we get the pandemic spread under control we will continue to reevaluate our comfort with certain visits, but that while we are in pandemic spread we will not be sharing living quarters with unvaccinated adults while our daughter isn't vaccinated. We are still happy to have other types of responsible visits.
This has all been met with "it's your right, but you are keeping me from my niece for political reasons and I'm disappointed but I've come to accept it." I know that "I'm sorry you feel that way" is just the best response from now on, but am I wrong to want to tell her the pandemic is why we won't see her now, but her being a selfish bitch is why we won't be seeing her in the future? And my instinct to be nice hasn't caused me to bend on my decisions, but it's been eating at me ALL DAY. Am I crazy? Was I too harsh? Am I being unreasonable? How can I make her understand this isn't personal.
Oh man, "niceness" in the age of Covid is a whole ass conversation on its own. So many people are struggling with these same kinds of conflicts right now, but at the end of the day we have to keep our kids and loved ones safe. You are absolutely not being too harsh.
The fact that we've been left without any meaningful leadership on how to make these kinds of decisions really doesn't help! People want to feel like they're making the right decision and so can feel resentment towards other people who are managing risk differently. I have found it helpful to think and talk about it in terms of my comfort level rather than covid risk - eg, "I know your party/gathering/family event is probably low risk, and you're taking precautions, but I know I'll feel too anxious to enjoy it, so I'm going to stay home."
OMG lack of leadership, yes. I'm clergy in a politically and theologically divided conference and we've had NO solid leadership - some "suggestions" and "guidelines" (and more from our district superintendent which is nice) but it's been hell for so many colleagues who think "church" only happens in a sanctuary on Sundays.
The key is to learn the difference between being nice and being kind. I am rarely nice, but I always try to be kind. And learning the difference is liberating.
For me, it was going to law school. Once you're a lawyer, and a woman, people just assume you're a dangerous bitch no matter how nice you are. If anything, you have to make a conscious effort to be less threatening when you don't want to be! The other big, big, plus is that being a lawyer, especially a litigator, really demands a kind of level-headed cold-blooded ferocity that I wish all women could get a chance to try out - the only thing I've done that compares is the VERY practical course of karate classes I took in graduate school. Getting practice fighting in a place where you have real power means that the kind of everyday bullshit that flattened me in my 20's is the easiest thing in the world to deal with now. (And it almost never happens - some of that's age, but a lot of it is just the faint constant dangervibes I radiate now. IT IS SO GREAT.)
P.S. I also take great joy in placing my polite-but-unmistakable menace in the service of younger women who are getting hit with shit. Is this man bothering you? LET ME HAVE A WORD.
Look, I haven't given my MOTHER IN LAW my phone number, so this made me really mad. You don't have to give your number to anyone and you don't have to make an excuse! There's no reason this guy would ask three times in a shift if he only has 'nice intentions'. Nice intentions don't include making someone feel uncomfortable.
In 2006 I changed my number and didn't give it to my parents. Best six years of my life followed. People acted like I'd thrown my mother off a cliff when I told them, but I had to do it. She was ruining my life (long story, and I don't need to explain it here, just take my word for it, maybe you'll read about it someday, as I'm writing about it). My brothers understood, and never gave them my number. I only just gave it to my mom this year, since I moved in to help take care of her.
Solidarity. My biomom has my number because I didn't bother to change it, it's been my number for 15 years. But she's blocked and I haven't so much as breathed in her general direction for five peaceful years and counting. She doesn't have my new address and my dad and brother both know well enough to not share it.
(and in this, you see the difference between being kind and being nice. I still can't stand my mother, and have many things against her, but here I am, taking care of her, and being kind, but not too nice, because she'd eat me alive if I were)
I think that one of the crucial dimensions of "niceness" for women is that we are conditioned to believe that basic "niceness" includes access to our time, energy, and attention, so we therefore come to believe that having - let alone defending - any personal boundaries is "rude". Including failing to smile, not responding to unwelcome conversations, and refusing to give out our contact information. None of those are things strangers or even acquaintances have the right to demand from us in the first place, so isn't it interesting that we perceive it as "rude" and "not nice" when we refuse, rather than when they demand? Misogyny in action.
OMG I'm on that sub every. day. and that post had me boiling. I thought of each time I didn't speak up when my boundaries were violated because I didn't want to make waves, or I didn't think I would be heard/believed, or it was hammered into me to be "nice." Now, I teach my children that being "nice" isn't the goal -- we emphasize kindness, yes, but a kindness with boundaries and consent and explicit permission to cause a total ruckus when those boundaries are crossed.
Practice is essential; we practice on the small stuff at home to work the muscle so it's prepared for the big stuff out in the world.
Experience: When my son was a toddler, we were at a CVS and an older man walked by and ruffled his hair. I froze, the uninvited physical contact and my mama bear instinct warring with "but he probably had nice intentions" and "but it didn't seem to upset the boy!" I processed right there and I SHOOK as I called him out in front of the cashier, told him his intention did not matter and that he had no business touching a child without permission. He apologized, I continued shaking, but it was a powerful moment.
I came to write something similar; I have sons and I remind older relatives to ask their permission before grabbing them for a hug. Even I ask their permission before undressing to change into PJs etc or if they need some butt cream! I hope it's teaching them that boundaries are healthy, and normal.
We pushed consent and boundaries hard, to the point that even my now-estranged, allergic-to-boundaries biomom asked before hugging. It's so rewarding to hear both my daughter and son use the language and apply their own boundaries.
YES to practice. And I love that story. I had a similar thing happen with my daughter at the grocery when a woman pinched her cheek and Layla swatted her hand away. The woman was so pissed that I didn't discipline Layla, but I said - no, you shouldn't have touched her and I'm *glad* that she feels empowered to swat away an adult's hand!
Working in a public library did it for me. Growing up in the southern United States, I was told to always be nice and respectful of everyone--aggressively polite and respectful. This was especially important when interacting with older people. In my teens and 20s I worked in the service industry, in which I thrived due to this sort of upbringing, even though it left me emotionally drained (and often crying) after a long day of faking positivity all while being constantly berated by rude customers. At 30, I started working as a public librarian. One day, after a particularly intense interaction with an older patron who didn't understand why they were charged for a DVD they admitted they lost, I had a total meltdown at the reference desk and started crying uncontrollably. I didn't understand why they were so mean to me when I was being so nice to them. It wasn't like I lost the DVD or even was the one who was responsible for charging their account. My supervisor pulled me aside and told me me that there was a line that, when crossed, meant I didn't need to be nice anymore. It didn't mean I should treat them as poorly as they treated me but it did mean that I had the right to disengage from the interaction, even if that meant dropping the niceties. Now each time I have a similar interaction, I think to myself "you don't have to be nice all the time" and try to take control of the situation rather than it taking control of me. It doesn't always work, but it definitely means I'm crying a lot less at the reference desk!
I'm not always good at not being nice--I run a hotel and being warm and nice/sweet is part of the job. However, COVID has brought out the worst in a lot of the people frequenting our property. I've started telling my staff, especially the younger girls, that if someone is sexually harassing them (or honestly harassing them in general, but the sexual harassment has been particularly bad the last 10 or so months) that they DO NOT have to be nice to them. I straight up yelled at a guy in the middle of the lobby for it a few weeks ago. If they're being harassed, I'll back them 100% if and when the guest or vendor goes to corporate offices about it. Nothing excuses that sort of behavior and I'm tired of men thinking they can get away with murder when they're guests in a service industry.
I used to be a barman and after work, from time to time, there was a meet up in a small bar with colleagues from other bars and we would tell the usual eye-rolling stories... but we all agreed that about the lowest of the low were the creeps who hit on bar women.
They were almost always savvy enough to not cross the 'you're fucking barred' line - and that made it worse.
They knew exactly what they were doing. A sleazy power thing, without a doubt.
I'm not unlearning niceness, I'm learning how to not be a doormat. I'm learning to stand up for myself. And surprisingly, that often makes me a bitch!!
I'm still learning (I'm 53), but I do think that one good thing about getting older is not giving a shit what people think. Suffering through the past 4 years of the Trump presidency has only intensified that feeling for me. I also have a daughter (she's 14) and I've never given her the idea that it's important to be nice. She still gets that message from others (other adults) but she has a healthy understanding of what it means to not give a fuck about what others think. I'm pretty impressed with this generation of girls making their way in a world that is rapidly changing.
As others have said, getting older was the key for me. As I get closer to 50 I truly DGAF about being liked or considered nice or attractive or whatever. Remember Kristin Scott Thomas in Fleabag? “You’re no longer a machine with parts, you’re just a person?” That.
Because I was also raised by a mom who taught me to prioritize everyone else’s comfort above my own: don’t be angry, don’t be sarcastic, don’t be difficult. I learned these all very well and recent years have been about unlearning it all.
I interrupt men at work now, when it’s warranted. They can die mad about it.
Perhaps not unlearning niceness, but unlearning accommodation. It shows up in so many ways that I didn't think about - well beyond matters of physical safety - for example, preemptively moving to the side on the sidewalk or in a store aisle, when I notice that typically men don't offer the same awareness or courtesy - passing over my stack of handouts in a meeting to a colleague who sat without collecting them and then getting a second set for myself - even the difference between "thanks for that" and "that's another idea" and "let's add that to the list" in a work meeting when "noted" and "right, as Janet suggested" and "so let's focus our attention on a, b, and c" are more...even. But I'd like to point out that this also happens between women, perhaps most easily seen in touching the abdomens of pregnant people, usually by women who have also been pregnant (that I handled in kind, and wow did it make a point). And it happens in the workplace (I could go on for days). Just to say that men aren't alone in implicitly or even explicitly furthering a culture of accommodation of and for them.
Unlearning accommodation is HUGE. It can be so telling what happens when you decide to just stop doing the little emotional or physical labors. Especially when the thing you were doing to accommodate isn't *hard*, they just expect you to be the one to do it.
I read The Gift of Fear and it made me understand how much we are socialised to be “nice” even when we have no reason to be. We’re taught from a young age, as women, to ignore our instincts that are telling us that a situation is wrong - that “he’s just being friendly” etc. It helped me see that niceness is not something I have to offer all the time.
When I had that realization I was so furious, and I'm still furious, and I don't think I'll ever get over it. The rules were all made for men, and we have to change them one by one.
I unlearned niceness by getting older.That’s it. Experience vs naïveté. I experienced decades of street harassment; and being vulnerable to emotional manipulation by friends, lovers, colleagues. And all the while endlessly talking about these things in therapy and with friends....There was a gradual change where I developed a sense of gravitas and a Don’t Fuck With Me demeanor. Learned to say NO somewhat gracefully. Separated myself from all friends who weren’t on my side—this is key. Proved myself at work as a valued, talented colleague who had a reputation as a straight shooter and who’s voice was respected. Became a leader, not a manager. In meetings: after light conversation and mild joking, when the actual purpose is being discussed, I learned to pause, look a person in the eye, speak in a lower voice, and speak the truth. I learned to take on a sort of polite, distant, but hardcore serious demeanor of professionalism and change the subject firmly when men’s conversation turns to “compliments”—I just did this last week. It was on Zoom, but he got the message, he gave up and we continued the real work. I learned to walk the streets, parking lots, gas stations, coffee shops, upscale grocery stores, community events, country club brunches (Mom still insists, though she somewhat admires the person I have become), with a hardcore sense of self possession. But for me it was unlearning low self esteem, a desire to be “popular,” and going from clueless to educated. From years of experience. I do what I can to help younger women understand all this—now the young women I encounter see educational messages all over, where I did not. I ache for them, because it could take a month to change themselves, not decades. I know this is “a lot,” Jessica, but your question inspired me.
"Hardcore sense of self possession" is such an excellent way to phrase this - that's something I definitely try to cultivate myself. How does that phrase go - no one can make you feel inferior without your consent? Yeah. Can be easier said than done, but goals.
THIS. When I was in my young 20s, I thought the women in their 40s at my office were sexless, dour bitches with no lives, because while I was flirting with all the men in their 40s, they would basically roll their eyes and walk away. It made me cringe so badly looking back that I actually approached one of those women about it, she was kinda like, lol, you were the least of my problems, and then told me how those men had been sabotaging her career for years. I wish there were more ways to explain to young women, especially the ones who don't consider themselves feminists, that you don't see many of the inequities until you get older -- like until you and your colleagues/friends start getting pregnant...you will see the inequity if they decide to terminate the pregnancy and you will see the inequity even more if they decide to have a child. Companies that have a 50/50 ratio of entry-level employees usually still have huge problems as you work your way up to the top...where have all those women gone??? Can the younger generations truly still believe all of these women voluntarily left the workforce just because raising kids seemed like it would be more cool and fun? I think my reply was even more "a lot" than your comment inspired ME ;)
It's not a lot! It's terrific and really inspiring! I love that so many people have answered "getting older", too, because I definitely feel the same way.
At my first job as a teen (at a fast food joint), I became friends with an older female coworker who simply did not take shit from anybody. I couldn't believe at first what she would "get away" with saying, often to men/boys--even the boss!--while standing up for me or the other girls. I moved on but never forgot her, and eventually (during and after college) I began applying her lessons to the way I interact with male coworkers. I'm in my 50s now, and I still think about her every time I use the weapons she gave me.
I think I'm still unlearning niceness, especially in office settings, where I continually find myself propping up male colleagues so that they like me -- my experience showed me that was the best, fastest way to get ahead, so it's a hard habit to not fall back on, especially when I'm feeling insecure.
A few years ago, I spoke up about a high school teacher I had had who had been "dating" students, and it turns out he was still doing it and still working there, 20 years later. I was really just shit-posting on Facebook, but it blew up and I got a) many people contacting me about how creepy this guy and other teachers at our school were and b) lots of people upset that I had forced a rapist teacher to resign, because (like most teacher-rapists) he was a beloved part of the community (they have to be, if they're gonna get away with all the raping). I was accused by many, including some of his recent victims/survivors, of "ruining his life." He has two daughters!! I was told. etc. etc. But the thing is...I KNEW I was in the right. I'm so relieved and thankful he resigned. I know that I didn't ruin his life, he did that. So...it really changed the way I view being nice. Because oftentimes being "nice" is a lie. People's need to "be nice" is what makes people not want to hold abusers accountable. And it turned out that even though speaking out made people hate me, dox me, etc, it felt so good in my soul to be truthful and not nice. So I'm sticking with truth as my guiding principle from now on.
I hope that what I and many, many other women way braver than me have done over the last few years has helped future generations like your daughter's see the value in truth over niceness, and hopefully, that they will be supported in that as well. Another big takeaway from my experience is that cops,etc. always warn survivors about coming forward, because of all of the criticism and scrutiny. And while that was hard, I think that literally every person I ever knew in high school got in touch, and EVERY ONE of them told me way to go, thank you, you're so brave, etc. So while it was a tough time it was also a time where a network I didn't even think existed anymore came out to support me. And I wish that message was sent to women thinking about speaking out these days. That yes, there will be people who are angry you weren't nice. But YOUR people will show you that they've got your back.
Oh wow, GOOD ON YOU for doing the right thing. I *hate* the whole ruined lives thing - constantly centering men's feelings and careers over women's literal safety. Fuck that guy.
I read something along the lines of “don’t disappoint yourself to avoid disappointing others” and I think it speaks a lot to the same issue of wanting to please other people, even when it harms us. It really resonated with me in a way that other versions of the same idea haven’t before.
I used to be "nice" to an absolute fault, until I realized that the people most invested in my acting that way were exploiting it to maintain status quo and compliance. Now I've kind of developed a reputation for being someone with high empathy but also a low tolerance for bullshit, and found a group of people who seem to respect me for that. They know I'm always the first one to reach out when someone is struggling BUT I'm also the one who will absolutely call out someone who's being racist or phobic, even if it means confrontation. This used to freak me out because I had such a need to be liked and thought to get that, I could never rock the boat.
But yeah, being just "nice" is overrated, and we're seeing in places like politics how it can be manipulated. Sometimes people confuse niceness with actually doing the right thing, and they're not always the same.
‘Now I've kind of developed a reputation for being someone with high empathy but also a low tolerance for bullshit, and found a group of people who seem to respect me for that.” This is the key to life right there! Don’t stop!
"high empathy but also a low tolerance for bullshit" -- love this. Never thought about it in this way, but I hope that's me, too. At work I try to cultivate this, but I think of myself as having a high level of dedication to the project, regardless of "niceness." So if I think the project contains racists stereotypes, I'm gonna say so. It's not nice but I'm thinking of the project first.
This is definitely different from culture to culture. I'm Canadian, and then lived in London for 7 years – two places that put a lot of emphasis on niceness or at least aggressive politeness. Then I moved to Germany five years ago. And wow... it's not rudeness, but a different style of communicating. Smiling all the time comes across like there's something wrong with you, and you only say you're sorry if you actually did something to someone. I can't say enough how much I prefer this. I can just directly say I want something, or say it's my turn when someone walks in front of me, or whatever, and I don't get that wave of 'wow she's bitchy' from everyone around me. It is so freeing. I don't find people rude, either, far from it. But this constant polite submissiveness is not part of the requirement in everyday interactions and I didn't realise how draining I found this until I didn't have to do it anymore. Obviously it is not a perfect idyll and there's plenty of misogyny around.
It took aging for me, and reading, and realizing that my gut instincts had been right all along, even though Other People kept telling me otherwise. I wish I had believed myself much, much younger. I took a lot of bullshit up until turning 30 because I had been trained that it was just the way things were, and while I inwardly questioned and rebelled, outwardly I tried to deal with the grossness as best I could. Do you constantly tell your daughter that she doesn't have to be nice to counteract the public message? I don't have kids, but I think about this issue a lot.
I try, but it is hard! She really wants people to like her, which I get. And she is a kind person, and I don't want her to lose that. But I worry about it A LOT.
One of my favorite things to do when someone makes a not-so-thinly-veiled comment or offensive joke, I just say "I don't think I understand what you mean." And then I watch them squirm.
There is definitely something about getting older that makes that "no fucks given" attitude come out swinging. Every year that goes by I give less of a shit.
I unlearned niceness in high school working in fast food. Lots of inappropriate things going on with older male coworkers (snapping me on the butt with wet towels, referring to me as “jail bait hoo ha ha” ala Finding Nemo, asking me out while I was underage, offers of alcohol to get me to their apts, etc). I escalated issues to the management and nothing was ever done. I didn’t have supportive parents that I could talk to either. I decided that I would have to defend myself after a year of constant harrassment. I came up with a few one liners to get them to stop but eventually walked off during a dinner rush after 4 years when a line cook commented about my having “perfect BJ lips.” I was 14-18 years old during these incidents.
Oh man, that's fucking awful. But yeah, I think that's how a lot of unlearn niceness. It's interesting because I took the opposite approach when I was in high school and college working retail (I worked at The Body Shop and the number of men who would come in and ask if they could put the lotion on me was astounding): I almost played up my niceness/feigned amusement as a defense mechanism. Like, "oh haha you're so funny!" Which I hate! But also, I think I felt like it would be the only thing that worked in the moment.
I feel like when we were younger, we didn't have the *language* to handle these sorts of situations. In the late aughts, I was straight out of college working as an editor at my hometown paper. I had my long hair in a braid. A 60-something (male obviously) editor told me it was "sexual" and he wanted to "pull it." At the time I laughed it off and went back to work, but current 35-year-old me would tell him to fuck right off and march to HR. I think a lot of my niceness was unlearned as a result of the #metoo movement and the writing that followed it.
When people say something out of line to me I often retort with an eye brow raise and a firm "Excuse me?" I give the person an out before I unleash the bitch. If they have the audacity to say it a second time I'm giving them the fire.
Once upon a time this incredibly sharp woman released a book called Full Frontal Feminism back in 2007. I was 16 years old at the time and purchased the book from my own money that I earned as a hostess. I read it over and over took every single word to heart. I followed said woman to any platform I could to read her words and learn from her experiences - for over a decade!
My ways are inspired by you. You've already got it in you.
I am struggling with this issue in parenting my eleven year old daughter. I am clearly not on the right track, as she currently thinks of herself as 'kind' and of me as bitchy. I believe some of the anti-bullying messages from elementary school were processed by her as a mandate to be overly obliging and kind at all times.
It's really hard! My 10 year old is also super nice, very accommodating. And I love that she is kind! It is a core part of who she is! But it's so difficult to honor that while also teaching her that it's not unkind to erect boundaries or be clear about what you want and need.
Yes! I struggle with this as well. It seems like as a society what we need right now is unrelenting kindness, but I feel like practicing that would inevitably lead to being exploited.
I have found a new cesspit that highlights the gender disparity with heartbreaking honesty. It's r/breakingmoms and if you want to see the reality of the impact of the pandemic on mothers, you won't find a better place.
Boundaries. It's ok to say no. And, teach her that she'll say no many many more times then she'll say yes. And, that's ok. Bc, who and what we let in ought to align with who and what we value. Help her know herself. Help her understand and value her own ideas, opinions, body, spirit, and taste in food, art, music, movies, books, etc. People crave validation. Help her develop an evolving narrative of herself. We don't need to take in every stray dog, or stray man, or stray anything, just bc it's crosses our path and decides they "like" us. Having some kind of sense of ourselves and our boundaries, helps us say no to what doesn't align with us and yes to what does.
*than
*it crosses
I am glad i read this as i have a daughter. "I'm sorry no, that wouldn't be appropriate" comes to mind. But the safety piece sucks.
I didn't really. I had to redirect the niceness towards myself. Learning boundaries and sticking to them has been re-worked in my mind as being nice to me because I deserve that.
My mother was not all the "nice." She didn't care that much about whether people liked her or not--therefore, neither did I. She didn't talk much at all about how I should be, but showed me by example.
If I now had a daughter the age of yours, I hope I would do things differently, prepare her better. Maybe mother-daughter self-defense classes. Reading books together to encourage open discussions of “what would you do if”. Practicing mature decision making like we practice any other skill. The intent would not be to make her more anxious and fearful but to give her confidence in her ability to cope, to think ahead and be prepared to pull out of her arsenal the most beneficial response.
I would also teach her to be aware of the long term consequences of her actions. We can be firm and assertive without defaulting to attack. Look where aggression has got the world so far. One mean remark may seem inconsequential, but keep piling mean on mean and what happens to how that person sees their place in the world? It isn’t weak to be courteous, even to be kind, to see the other as a person, to give them an answer you both can live with. I don’t think society becomes better by encouraging meanness. There is a middle ground between being nicely compliant and being a complete bitch. I would say civilization depends on us finding that middle ground.
I'm so happy to see a few comments on the difference between "nice" and kind." About twenty years ago on a different message board system, someone posted the distinction and it's stayed with me ever since.
I'm not nice, not anymore. Kind, yes. Helpful, considerate, sure. But I don't do nice anymore, and I especially don't do nice when someone is persistent about denying my boundaries. This AITA seriously pissed me off, and I'm so glad that there were A LOT of others who saw the same thing.
How do we unlearn being nice? I think some of it comes down to learning to care more about our own feelings and safety than what others think of us. As women, we're conditioned to go along to get along at a very early age. Share your toys, share your snack, give up the thing that matters to you so someone else isn't put out. We're constantly taught to yield. Before long, we're going in reverse to try to keep from offending anyone.
Maybe the thing to begin doing with your daughter is to start dissecting who or what will change by her doing things one way ("nicely") vs another way ("not so nicely")? Role play it. Teach her to tolerate feeling okay with saying no, with standing her ground. Some kids are really good at this from the get go, others need to learn it.
Last thing; a friend likes to remind me "The rules are fake." Being nice? Fake rule. Worrying about what others think of us? Fake rule. Worrying about offending someone? Fake rule. Worrying about not being liked? Definitely a fake rule. If someone doesn't like me for being my real authentic self, that's fine. It's a helluva lot better than me not liking me for being inauthentic and fake.
FAKE RULE! YES!
Nice v kind is the most important distinction I’ve found, but in the unlearning of things I think it’s difficult to make that calculation. Some of the hesitancy of young girls is from the fear of being unliked, (esp middle school, which is gender-neutral in its cruelty!) but I would argue a lot of it is seen as doors closing on future opportunities or relationships. You don’t want to *ruin* anything. And some of that is an ingrained sense of who makes the decisions and who runs the world. (Men!) If we can unlearn, or unteach I guess, the prevailing idea of male power, we are freed to make our own distinctions in the moment.
I decided I might as well “ruin everything,” long ago. Looking back, I realize I was involuntarily “not-nice” quite often (was discussing some amusing times I simply spoke up against injustices with a friend tonight), which certainly did close doors to me. But did I really want to go through those doors? My life would be so different today if I had. And as for these days, I figure people will find out sooner or later who I really am, and some won’t like me, and I not only don’t want to work with them anyway, but also, probably would never please them no matter how I tried to fake it. No, I prefer to “ruin everything,” and either build my own niche and create my own center of gravity, or, failing that, find my people, as hard as it may be, and as long as it may take. It is definitely not easy, but neither is being nice all the time and making myself sick, physically and mentally, from the effort and collateral damage.
I have an 11 year old daughter and I get it. I am a 66 year old physician so I have been in the game a while. I think the way we teach our daughters to be a bit bitchier is help them to recognize the cultural patterns that say it's ok for a guy to be "forthright", but not for a gal....in fact the girl gets shamed for it, and the guy gets honored. Important to see this patriarchal cultural pattern. Next is to reinforce speaking up for yourself everyday.
As a kid, I was obsessed with 'Into the Woods,' and a line in there is "nice is different than good." That made a lot of sense to me as a kid and still does now. As a tomboy who grew up into a masculine-of-center woman, I find I occupy a space that is frequently free of the sort of sexism described in that AITA post. As such, I try to harness energy into teaching my female-identifying students (I teach HS) strategies for navigating toxic male energy. I've been struck by how pervasive notions of 'the friend zone' are, and that young women truly allow themselves to feel bad about "putting someone in the friend zone." It makes them feel as though they haven't been nice. It's distressing. I will often ask them, "can you think of a time a boy did the same thing? did they feel this bad about it?" It is an uphill and ongoing challenge. They learn it all when they are so, so, so young.
Oh man, bless you for doing that! I also get so upset about the friend zone bullshit, it's everywhere
In the last two years, I talked with a lot of people who broke up with their girl/boyfriends, and we began discussing the phrase, “just friends” and decided that WTF does “just” mean? Like, merely? Like lesser than otherwise sexually involved? No, we decided: no such thing as “just friends” anymore, because friends will stick with you after you break up, or are dumped. Friends are better! So, we decided to try saying, “Just my girl/boyfriend/lover,” or “just going out with them” or even “just sleeping together” from now on. I have dropped “just friends” from my vocabulary. Friends is definitely better than a girl/boyfriend or lover.
Work in progress!! For me I think it was learning that there are things that are absolutely unacceptable to me, regardless of who they come from. I was definitely brought up with the whole 'respect your elders' concept, but without being taught or made to feel that I should be respected and have autonomy over myself as well. I realized much later that even as a teenager I should have been able to feel like my boundaries mattered... but I didn't know how to express when something made me uncomfortable. Sometimes I still don't...
In the frame of being nice, it feels more like staying quiet and deferring to others with more "power" than you and... uh, no thank you on that.
Learning about boundaries and consent were so important, and also how be mindful of and respect the boundaries of others.
Sometimes I still don't, too!
Let's face it, we're "nice" to protect ourselves from harm. We're often terrified to incite male anger (or even female anger in some cases, as I have, growing up). Our lessening of niceness needs to be collective. When one of us has the courage to not be "too nice," it's easier for the rest of us. We need to be examples to each other, and aspire to be like the bravest/kindest amongst us.
Oh, and on the professional front, I just want to say that I was providing artwork to an upstate magazine for a while, and they decided they needed fresh blood, so they asked me if I knew any other artists who'd do the same as I did, and just as I was on the verge of saying, "yes," and suggesting some, I held back and said, "Yes, but if you want me to get them for you, you can make me an art editor." And they did. And I was SO damn proud of myself. I told everyone I knew, because, like I said below, if you do it, you give permission to others to do it. Meaning, if you're not too nice. Being too nice never got me anywhere.
Telling them to make you an art editor is handling your business and I loved reading your comments!
Ah that's great - good for you!
Somebody has probably already said this but I live by the mantra, "Take no shit, but do no harm." I can't even remember where I read that but it really resonated with me. I try for that but it's hard to unlearn a lifetime of being told to be nice.
Years ago I had a weird incident with a man while waiting in line with my children. He was really bothered that he had to wait behind us and kept making jokes about it and touched my back a few times. I was a little polite at first and then I just ignored him. I didn't even tell him to not touch me. He felt a little sinister and I hate confrontation. I think sometimes being nice is also a defense/survival mechanism. I told my kids afterward how much he bothered me and that I had a right to tell him but just couldn't because I was worried it could devolve into something worse. I felt like a deer in headlights and just wanted to order our food and get away from him. Listen to your instincts even if they are wrong. Your safety is more important than someone else's comfort!
"Take no shit, but do no harm" is literally the perfect mantra.
It is horrible that we have to fear bodily harm. I once asked a guy in the cafe where I worked not to hand me the coffee urn when it was empty and to just please let me know it was empty and I'd have someone take care of it and he went so ballistic in such an insane way (accusing me of not liking him, of constantly telling him what to do, i had obviously triggered some weird misogynistic grudge he had against women in general), that I was actually afraid to leave by the front door when I went home. In fact, I realized afterwards that I'd pointed him out to the barista much earlier and said that if anyone would come shoot up the cafe on a grudge it would be him, which was frightening. Yes ,we have to be careful.
It took me working in a cafe and noticing that when men did the same job I did (working at the counter, taking orders from customers), they smiled and apologized less and it didn't seem to bother the customers AT ALL. Whereas if the young women did the same, they'd be treated as "bitches." So, first I decided I wouldn't smile or apologize more than the men did. THEN, it just got easier. I basically weaned myself off super-niceness (and yes, probably at the cost of tips, but I didn't care, and most of the other young women were on board with this, too, even though we never made a collective decision. We were known for "being rude," our boss told us, ha ha. But somehow we got away with it.) Little by little, I just took it down a notch. And then one day one of the young women -- I mean younger than me by like 25 years! -- told me how she'd told one of the guys who provided service to the cafe that his constant commenting about her appearance made her uncomfortable, and that he'd agreed to stop it, and I realized it could be as easy as that. I mean, not everyone will take it well, I'll acknowledge that. But when one woman says it, it gives everyone around her permission to try it, too, especially if it works. So, inspired by her, I began to be more outspoken about my feelings about being physically appraised (whether positively or negatively) all the time, and encouraging my colleagues and friends to do the same.
I had already been inspiring them with my responses to men who flirted with me at the counter when I was on break. Their favorite thing I did was when men would say, "hey we should go on a hike sometime," I'd responde, "I HATE HIKES." Ha ha ha ha. Guys never see that coming. They just assume you'll be so happy they're asking you out (safely and ambiguously) that you'll go out and buy bug spray and hiking boots whether you like it or not. It's like the big pickup line upstate, where I lived for five years. My coworkers would be listening in, and waiting to see how I responded, and I was glad to experiment for them.
Yeah, it takes a while and it takes practice, but I am now a bona fide NOT NICE GIRL.
I’m in my 40s and I’m still learning how to navigate this. I think a lot of it is wrapped up in self-esteem: I can be a terrible people-pleaser, all stemming from a deep fear that people won’t like me. As my self-esteem improves, I’m finding that I care less and less about what people think. It’s refreshing.
I would also agree with those who have already posted that age and experience helps a great deal as well. When you’re nice to people and they still treat you badly, or even take advantage of you, you learn, even if it’s the hard way,
Yes, love this.
I am 38 and still struggle terribly with this, although age and a career change have helped. Part of the problem—trying to live as an artist—my job was to sell myself, which for me, is easy to confuse with niceness. Men often mistake my niceness with flirting, which has often lead to uncomfortable power dynamics, where I’ve felt like saying ‘no’ or shaming bad behavior could put my livelihood (and reputation) in jeopardy. In my 20s (in Los Angeles), I never knew “who" I was in contact with—"this could be the wealthy collector who could make my dreams come true!” is how I approached each interaction. I worked a side job serving in restaurants to support my creative pursuits. My regular paycheck also depended on being nice (tipping) and allowing people to often be more inappropriate than normal. I once had an older male customer who was very drunk and inappropriate. My boss was horrified at what I told him at the end of my shift and asked me if the guy should be 86’ed (banned from the restaurant), and I said “no, it’s fine, he left me a huge tip!” And I meant it. The amount this abusive customer tipped me was greater than the sum of the rest of my tips that night—so of course it was OK to be treated like that! I even jumped at the opportunity to serve him the next time he came in, hoping for another big tip (alas, this plan failed as he tipped the customary 20%, despite me being SO NICE)!
I read about that young painter (Maria Farmer) that was manipulated by Epstein. That would have been me in a heartbeat. Eager to please, completely broke, and looking for a break. There seems to be a network of people who prey on the niceness of young women. I'm quite sad for my younger self. Being so nice didn't benefit me, mostly it gave away my power. Perhaps it is all the accumulated micro abuses over the years that contribute to us “taking less shit” and lead to defining clearer boundaries as we age. At least that seems to be true for me!
"Men often mistake my niceness with flirting" YES TO THIS. That was my entire young adulthood.
I learned it later in life through exhaustion and honestly my PMDD - I observed that when I was just all tapped out and couldn't be bothered to "make nice" suddenly, things got done by others faster or behavior I didn't like stopped short. I could see a much more direct line between me speaking my unvarnished truth and results. I confess, I like to be nice when I can be and feels authentic, but I know at any time I can simplify and get down to it. Boundaries that confirm my autonomy and trust in myself have a wonderful way of reinforcing themselves. It took way too long for this to become clear for me and I wish I had been encouraged earlier in ways that aligned with my love of kindness and clarity.
Oh that's super interesting! And I don't doubt things moved along fasted and better.
One day I realized that my PMS bitchiness got rid of jerks in my life, and I began to realize that PMS might be a gift. It made me suffer no fools. It's not like I lost anyone I liked, if you know what I mean. I just lost the jerks. Or quit the right bad jobs.
Right!? Total gift that I undersold and tried to tamp down for years. Now I thank it when I find myself benefiting from the more blunt approach. I have to remind myself to appreciate it though as there is still a very strong tendency to need to make nice, or explain my tone, or a thousand other qualifiers. But I really try not to dim the shine of me looking out for me.
I unlearned niceness by going to law school and becoming a litigator. By the time I burnt out, I had reduced a male opposing counsel to tears during a simple phone call. I do NOT recommend this method. Side effects for me included severe career burnout & $100k in student loans & weight gain (law the most sedentary career with super long hours, and in my case, comfort eating).
The trick for me was to just litigate for a few years, and then go do other, nicer things. (Legal writing is still sedentary, but I get to pet my cats whenever I want.)
My mother was tough as nails, and while she was not exactly a loving or supportive parent and this left me emotionally stunted in other ways, it also spared me from the social conditioning a lot of girls are subjected to, and it's not an overstatement to say this quite possibly saved my life more than once. One day when I was about 11 I was walking home from school and a man pulled up to me. He was crying and going on about his lost dog, how distraught he was and how he needed me to get in and help him search, since he couldn't drive and scan the road at the same time. He paced after me, crying, begging, going on and on. I don't recall feeling scared; no "stranger danger" alarm bells were going off in my head. But I had homework to do and tv shows I wanted to watch and I was hungry and the way this guy was crying and carrying on made me uncomfortable and I didn't feel like helping. Also why was he bugging some random kid instead of friends or family? I felt zero qualms saying no, and casually continued on my way. As I've gotten older, I've realized this ability is a superpower, and I've spent a lot of time badgering (with love!) my AFAB friends to unlearn the social conditioning to be deferential and sweet to men.
As others have pointed out- the difference between nice and kind is huge. I have made this point about New Yorkers at lot- New Yorkers might not be "nice" but when I lived in Manhattan I saw random acts of kindness every day. Strangers helping each other carry a stroller up stairs in the subway because the elevator was broken, paying for the next guy's coffee just because, endlessly giving directions to the lost, buying an extra umbrella from the stand on the corner for the person getting soaked. "Nice" is meaningless and often a cover for cruelty. Kindness is everything.
I know this is a serious story and I'm so glad you're ok but "I had homework to do and TV to watch and I was hungry" made me laugh - I love it.
Yaaaay this makes me happy. It makes me giggle too; "sorry to interrupt your textbook kidnapping scenario sir but I have math to finish before my shows are on and I need a snack." I know dark humor is not for everyone but it keeps me alive.
I had a similar experience eluding a guy in Italy at a fashion party who was determined that me and a bunch of other girls at a party accompany him and them to a boat party, and as he insisted on me going with them, and I kept saying I needed to get home to sleep because I had to work in the morning, I remember thinking, "Is he crazy? Why does he think I have to obey him? He must be deluded about his power over me." I had no sense of danger (which I would have, if I knew about those parties at the time), I just thought he was insane to think he could boss me around, so I said I'd meet him outside and when I got outside I literally ran and hid behind a car a half a block away. I heard him looking for me, and even saw him look under a few cars! When he gave up, I walked back to my hostel. Ten years later, I heard about how those parties always ended up in rape parties with the people from Elite modeling agency (I was one of those models, at the party), and how if drugged drinks didn't work, they'd literally hit models over the head to knock them out and rape them. I was lucky I was just stubborn and clueless.
Yikes! So glad you're all right. How awful, ugh.
You know what’s odd? I was actually scared but it was by his assumption that he could dominate me; the audacity of him thinking he could override my decision made me think he must be crazy and therefore dangerous was what scared me more than anything I could imagine him doing to me. It was almost like that “you’re not my mother” moment I had on the first day of school in the first grade. I’m glad I didn’t bend to his will like I did to Mrs Metviner after she bellowed at me to sit down at my desk!
I realized in my mid 20's that I would rather have total control over my life and body than be liked. And that all the rage I felt when guys treated me more like a doll than a human was a natural response to being treated like I didn't matter and was just there for their amusement. That realization was life altering, and I wish I had come to it earlier.
Whew, I feel this one.
You can't unlearn niceness but you can say that somethings require a firm no response. My daughter is not nice and I'm trying to get her a little nicer. Your case I would talk with your daughter and explain that an older man asking for her contact information is a reason to be firm and say no way.
Wow I don't think you could misunderstand the intent of this post more
I feel like I am constantly struggling to find an appropriate balance between niceness and not giving into an instinct to be cruel/mean to someone when they keep trying to push/guilt/manipulate me. I'm mostly easy-going but can have a very 'fight fire with fire and I will win' instinct.
My current example, weighing heavily on my mind today, is a discussion/fight my husband and I find ourselves in with his sister, who wants to do a multi-family beach trip in August. We said 'sounds super fun, and if all the adults in attendance are vaccinated, we're totally in. otherwise, we can't self-isolate prior to a trip and we'll have to count ourselves in.'
We have since been told we are making political parenting choices that prevent her from being the aunt she wants to be. That COVID is here to stay and mRNA vaccines may never be approved in children so we might as well be telling her she won't see our daughter until she's an adult. And that we've made her feel dirty and contagious multiple times throughout this pandemic (we've seen her several times, but outside and no close contact. Our daughter is 17-months now and was 6 months when this started, so I get that a lot of family missed prime baby snuggles time. If we could have asked for the pandemic to hold off until she was older, we would have, sorry my dudes). Since we are bringing our kid to daycare (I'm an essential local government employee who has worked mostly in my office throughout the pandemic with a few weeks from home in May of last year, and my husband is an IT professional who also has to go into the office a few days a week) we've already opened ourselves up to risk and so we should be fine with more riskl.
We tried to explain our rationale and that as we get the pandemic spread under control we will continue to reevaluate our comfort with certain visits, but that while we are in pandemic spread we will not be sharing living quarters with unvaccinated adults while our daughter isn't vaccinated. We are still happy to have other types of responsible visits.
This has all been met with "it's your right, but you are keeping me from my niece for political reasons and I'm disappointed but I've come to accept it." I know that "I'm sorry you feel that way" is just the best response from now on, but am I wrong to want to tell her the pandemic is why we won't see her now, but her being a selfish bitch is why we won't be seeing her in the future? And my instinct to be nice hasn't caused me to bend on my decisions, but it's been eating at me ALL DAY. Am I crazy? Was I too harsh? Am I being unreasonable? How can I make her understand this isn't personal.
Oh man, "niceness" in the age of Covid is a whole ass conversation on its own. So many people are struggling with these same kinds of conflicts right now, but at the end of the day we have to keep our kids and loved ones safe. You are absolutely not being too harsh.
The fact that we've been left without any meaningful leadership on how to make these kinds of decisions really doesn't help! People want to feel like they're making the right decision and so can feel resentment towards other people who are managing risk differently. I have found it helpful to think and talk about it in terms of my comfort level rather than covid risk - eg, "I know your party/gathering/family event is probably low risk, and you're taking precautions, but I know I'll feel too anxious to enjoy it, so I'm going to stay home."
OMG lack of leadership, yes. I'm clergy in a politically and theologically divided conference and we've had NO solid leadership - some "suggestions" and "guidelines" (and more from our district superintendent which is nice) but it's been hell for so many colleagues who think "church" only happens in a sanctuary on Sundays.
The key is to learn the difference between being nice and being kind. I am rarely nice, but I always try to be kind. And learning the difference is liberating.
I love how many people have made this distinction, because it really is an important one!
For me, it was going to law school. Once you're a lawyer, and a woman, people just assume you're a dangerous bitch no matter how nice you are. If anything, you have to make a conscious effort to be less threatening when you don't want to be! The other big, big, plus is that being a lawyer, especially a litigator, really demands a kind of level-headed cold-blooded ferocity that I wish all women could get a chance to try out - the only thing I've done that compares is the VERY practical course of karate classes I took in graduate school. Getting practice fighting in a place where you have real power means that the kind of everyday bullshit that flattened me in my 20's is the easiest thing in the world to deal with now. (And it almost never happens - some of that's age, but a lot of it is just the faint constant dangervibes I radiate now. IT IS SO GREAT.)
Love this. Also, I hope people think I'm a dangerous bitch (I am)
P.S. I also take great joy in placing my polite-but-unmistakable menace in the service of younger women who are getting hit with shit. Is this man bothering you? LET ME HAVE A WORD.
Look, I haven't given my MOTHER IN LAW my phone number, so this made me really mad. You don't have to give your number to anyone and you don't have to make an excuse! There's no reason this guy would ask three times in a shift if he only has 'nice intentions'. Nice intentions don't include making someone feel uncomfortable.
In 2006 I changed my number and didn't give it to my parents. Best six years of my life followed. People acted like I'd thrown my mother off a cliff when I told them, but I had to do it. She was ruining my life (long story, and I don't need to explain it here, just take my word for it, maybe you'll read about it someday, as I'm writing about it). My brothers understood, and never gave them my number. I only just gave it to my mom this year, since I moved in to help take care of her.
Solidarity. My biomom has my number because I didn't bother to change it, it's been my number for 15 years. But she's blocked and I haven't so much as breathed in her general direction for five peaceful years and counting. She doesn't have my new address and my dad and brother both know well enough to not share it.
(and in this, you see the difference between being kind and being nice. I still can't stand my mother, and have many things against her, but here I am, taking care of her, and being kind, but not too nice, because she'd eat me alive if I were)
I think that one of the crucial dimensions of "niceness" for women is that we are conditioned to believe that basic "niceness" includes access to our time, energy, and attention, so we therefore come to believe that having - let alone defending - any personal boundaries is "rude". Including failing to smile, not responding to unwelcome conversations, and refusing to give out our contact information. None of those are things strangers or even acquaintances have the right to demand from us in the first place, so isn't it interesting that we perceive it as "rude" and "not nice" when we refuse, rather than when they demand? Misogyny in action.
Right - it's about so, so many aspects of our lives!
Yes!
Gods, poor woman.
This is infuriating.
So infuriating.
OMG I'm on that sub every. day. and that post had me boiling. I thought of each time I didn't speak up when my boundaries were violated because I didn't want to make waves, or I didn't think I would be heard/believed, or it was hammered into me to be "nice." Now, I teach my children that being "nice" isn't the goal -- we emphasize kindness, yes, but a kindness with boundaries and consent and explicit permission to cause a total ruckus when those boundaries are crossed.
Practice is essential; we practice on the small stuff at home to work the muscle so it's prepared for the big stuff out in the world.
Experience: When my son was a toddler, we were at a CVS and an older man walked by and ruffled his hair. I froze, the uninvited physical contact and my mama bear instinct warring with "but he probably had nice intentions" and "but it didn't seem to upset the boy!" I processed right there and I SHOOK as I called him out in front of the cashier, told him his intention did not matter and that he had no business touching a child without permission. He apologized, I continued shaking, but it was a powerful moment.
I came to write something similar; I have sons and I remind older relatives to ask their permission before grabbing them for a hug. Even I ask their permission before undressing to change into PJs etc or if they need some butt cream! I hope it's teaching them that boundaries are healthy, and normal.
We pushed consent and boundaries hard, to the point that even my now-estranged, allergic-to-boundaries biomom asked before hugging. It's so rewarding to hear both my daughter and son use the language and apply their own boundaries.
Though I will admit it's still surprising (but heartening) to hear a four year old ask his brother to "please move out of my personal space"!
YES to practice. And I love that story. I had a similar thing happen with my daughter at the grocery when a woman pinched her cheek and Layla swatted her hand away. The woman was so pissed that I didn't discipline Layla, but I said - no, you shouldn't have touched her and I'm *glad* that she feels empowered to swat away an adult's hand!
Exactly! Like, excuse me, I would also slap your hand away if you pinched my cheek. Egad. Children are fully human!
The underlying thing I am reading here is that all of these stories are about gaining a sense of POWER.
Working in a public library did it for me. Growing up in the southern United States, I was told to always be nice and respectful of everyone--aggressively polite and respectful. This was especially important when interacting with older people. In my teens and 20s I worked in the service industry, in which I thrived due to this sort of upbringing, even though it left me emotionally drained (and often crying) after a long day of faking positivity all while being constantly berated by rude customers. At 30, I started working as a public librarian. One day, after a particularly intense interaction with an older patron who didn't understand why they were charged for a DVD they admitted they lost, I had a total meltdown at the reference desk and started crying uncontrollably. I didn't understand why they were so mean to me when I was being so nice to them. It wasn't like I lost the DVD or even was the one who was responsible for charging their account. My supervisor pulled me aside and told me me that there was a line that, when crossed, meant I didn't need to be nice anymore. It didn't mean I should treat them as poorly as they treated me but it did mean that I had the right to disengage from the interaction, even if that meant dropping the niceties. Now each time I have a similar interaction, I think to myself "you don't have to be nice all the time" and try to take control of the situation rather than it taking control of me. It doesn't always work, but it definitely means I'm crying a lot less at the reference desk!
Oh man, I'm so sorry! That sounds awful but I'm so glad that you had a supervisor who supported you. (Also thanks for what you do, love librarians!!)
I'm not always good at not being nice--I run a hotel and being warm and nice/sweet is part of the job. However, COVID has brought out the worst in a lot of the people frequenting our property. I've started telling my staff, especially the younger girls, that if someone is sexually harassing them (or honestly harassing them in general, but the sexual harassment has been particularly bad the last 10 or so months) that they DO NOT have to be nice to them. I straight up yelled at a guy in the middle of the lobby for it a few weeks ago. If they're being harassed, I'll back them 100% if and when the guest or vendor goes to corporate offices about it. Nothing excuses that sort of behavior and I'm tired of men thinking they can get away with murder when they're guests in a service industry.
Right - I can't imagine how much more difficult that is for folks in the service industry. I'm so glad that you're telling them not to take shit!
I used to be a barman and after work, from time to time, there was a meet up in a small bar with colleagues from other bars and we would tell the usual eye-rolling stories... but we all agreed that about the lowest of the low were the creeps who hit on bar women.
They were almost always savvy enough to not cross the 'you're fucking barred' line - and that made it worse.
They knew exactly what they were doing. A sleazy power thing, without a doubt.
I'm not unlearning niceness, I'm learning how to not be a doormat. I'm learning to stand up for myself. And surprisingly, that often makes me a bitch!!
YUP!
I'm still learning (I'm 53), but I do think that one good thing about getting older is not giving a shit what people think. Suffering through the past 4 years of the Trump presidency has only intensified that feeling for me. I also have a daughter (she's 14) and I've never given her the idea that it's important to be nice. She still gets that message from others (other adults) but she has a healthy understanding of what it means to not give a fuck about what others think. I'm pretty impressed with this generation of girls making their way in a world that is rapidly changing.
Ahh that makes me feel hopeful about my kid!
As others have said, getting older was the key for me. As I get closer to 50 I truly DGAF about being liked or considered nice or attractive or whatever. Remember Kristin Scott Thomas in Fleabag? “You’re no longer a machine with parts, you’re just a person?” That.
Because I was also raised by a mom who taught me to prioritize everyone else’s comfort above my own: don’t be angry, don’t be sarcastic, don’t be difficult. I learned these all very well and recent years have been about unlearning it all.
I interrupt men at work now, when it’s warranted. They can die mad about it.
That scene was incredible, it's so true
Perhaps not unlearning niceness, but unlearning accommodation. It shows up in so many ways that I didn't think about - well beyond matters of physical safety - for example, preemptively moving to the side on the sidewalk or in a store aisle, when I notice that typically men don't offer the same awareness or courtesy - passing over my stack of handouts in a meeting to a colleague who sat without collecting them and then getting a second set for myself - even the difference between "thanks for that" and "that's another idea" and "let's add that to the list" in a work meeting when "noted" and "right, as Janet suggested" and "so let's focus our attention on a, b, and c" are more...even. But I'd like to point out that this also happens between women, perhaps most easily seen in touching the abdomens of pregnant people, usually by women who have also been pregnant (that I handled in kind, and wow did it make a point). And it happens in the workplace (I could go on for days). Just to say that men aren't alone in implicitly or even explicitly furthering a culture of accommodation of and for them.
Unlearning accommodation is HUGE. It can be so telling what happens when you decide to just stop doing the little emotional or physical labors. Especially when the thing you were doing to accommodate isn't *hard*, they just expect you to be the one to do it.
That's a really smart distinction
I read The Gift of Fear and it made me understand how much we are socialised to be “nice” even when we have no reason to be. We’re taught from a young age, as women, to ignore our instincts that are telling us that a situation is wrong - that “he’s just being friendly” etc. It helped me see that niceness is not something I have to offer all the time.
When I had that realization I was so furious, and I'm still furious, and I don't think I'll ever get over it. The rules were all made for men, and we have to change them one by one.
Oh I've never read it, will def check out!
I unlearned niceness by getting older.That’s it. Experience vs naïveté. I experienced decades of street harassment; and being vulnerable to emotional manipulation by friends, lovers, colleagues. And all the while endlessly talking about these things in therapy and with friends....There was a gradual change where I developed a sense of gravitas and a Don’t Fuck With Me demeanor. Learned to say NO somewhat gracefully. Separated myself from all friends who weren’t on my side—this is key. Proved myself at work as a valued, talented colleague who had a reputation as a straight shooter and who’s voice was respected. Became a leader, not a manager. In meetings: after light conversation and mild joking, when the actual purpose is being discussed, I learned to pause, look a person in the eye, speak in a lower voice, and speak the truth. I learned to take on a sort of polite, distant, but hardcore serious demeanor of professionalism and change the subject firmly when men’s conversation turns to “compliments”—I just did this last week. It was on Zoom, but he got the message, he gave up and we continued the real work. I learned to walk the streets, parking lots, gas stations, coffee shops, upscale grocery stores, community events, country club brunches (Mom still insists, though she somewhat admires the person I have become), with a hardcore sense of self possession. But for me it was unlearning low self esteem, a desire to be “popular,” and going from clueless to educated. From years of experience. I do what I can to help younger women understand all this—now the young women I encounter see educational messages all over, where I did not. I ache for them, because it could take a month to change themselves, not decades. I know this is “a lot,” Jessica, but your question inspired me.
"Hardcore sense of self possession" is such an excellent way to phrase this - that's something I definitely try to cultivate myself. How does that phrase go - no one can make you feel inferior without your consent? Yeah. Can be easier said than done, but goals.
THIS. When I was in my young 20s, I thought the women in their 40s at my office were sexless, dour bitches with no lives, because while I was flirting with all the men in their 40s, they would basically roll their eyes and walk away. It made me cringe so badly looking back that I actually approached one of those women about it, she was kinda like, lol, you were the least of my problems, and then told me how those men had been sabotaging her career for years. I wish there were more ways to explain to young women, especially the ones who don't consider themselves feminists, that you don't see many of the inequities until you get older -- like until you and your colleagues/friends start getting pregnant...you will see the inequity if they decide to terminate the pregnancy and you will see the inequity even more if they decide to have a child. Companies that have a 50/50 ratio of entry-level employees usually still have huge problems as you work your way up to the top...where have all those women gone??? Can the younger generations truly still believe all of these women voluntarily left the workforce just because raising kids seemed like it would be more cool and fun? I think my reply was even more "a lot" than your comment inspired ME ;)
It's not a lot! It's terrific and really inspiring! I love that so many people have answered "getting older", too, because I definitely feel the same way.
At my first job as a teen (at a fast food joint), I became friends with an older female coworker who simply did not take shit from anybody. I couldn't believe at first what she would "get away" with saying, often to men/boys--even the boss!--while standing up for me or the other girls. I moved on but never forgot her, and eventually (during and after college) I began applying her lessons to the way I interact with male coworkers. I'm in my 50s now, and I still think about her every time I use the weapons she gave me.
Oh man, we should all have a "don't take shit" mentor
Definitely, just go find any grandma working at a Wendy's and you're set lol
I think I'm still unlearning niceness, especially in office settings, where I continually find myself propping up male colleagues so that they like me -- my experience showed me that was the best, fastest way to get ahead, so it's a hard habit to not fall back on, especially when I'm feeling insecure.
A few years ago, I spoke up about a high school teacher I had had who had been "dating" students, and it turns out he was still doing it and still working there, 20 years later. I was really just shit-posting on Facebook, but it blew up and I got a) many people contacting me about how creepy this guy and other teachers at our school were and b) lots of people upset that I had forced a rapist teacher to resign, because (like most teacher-rapists) he was a beloved part of the community (they have to be, if they're gonna get away with all the raping). I was accused by many, including some of his recent victims/survivors, of "ruining his life." He has two daughters!! I was told. etc. etc. But the thing is...I KNEW I was in the right. I'm so relieved and thankful he resigned. I know that I didn't ruin his life, he did that. So...it really changed the way I view being nice. Because oftentimes being "nice" is a lie. People's need to "be nice" is what makes people not want to hold abusers accountable. And it turned out that even though speaking out made people hate me, dox me, etc, it felt so good in my soul to be truthful and not nice. So I'm sticking with truth as my guiding principle from now on.
I hope that what I and many, many other women way braver than me have done over the last few years has helped future generations like your daughter's see the value in truth over niceness, and hopefully, that they will be supported in that as well. Another big takeaway from my experience is that cops,etc. always warn survivors about coming forward, because of all of the criticism and scrutiny. And while that was hard, I think that literally every person I ever knew in high school got in touch, and EVERY ONE of them told me way to go, thank you, you're so brave, etc. So while it was a tough time it was also a time where a network I didn't even think existed anymore came out to support me. And I wish that message was sent to women thinking about speaking out these days. That yes, there will be people who are angry you weren't nice. But YOUR people will show you that they've got your back.
Oh wow, GOOD ON YOU for doing the right thing. I *hate* the whole ruined lives thing - constantly centering men's feelings and careers over women's literal safety. Fuck that guy.
I read something along the lines of “don’t disappoint yourself to avoid disappointing others” and I think it speaks a lot to the same issue of wanting to please other people, even when it harms us. It really resonated with me in a way that other versions of the same idea haven’t before.
I love that!
I used to be "nice" to an absolute fault, until I realized that the people most invested in my acting that way were exploiting it to maintain status quo and compliance. Now I've kind of developed a reputation for being someone with high empathy but also a low tolerance for bullshit, and found a group of people who seem to respect me for that. They know I'm always the first one to reach out when someone is struggling BUT I'm also the one who will absolutely call out someone who's being racist or phobic, even if it means confrontation. This used to freak me out because I had such a need to be liked and thought to get that, I could never rock the boat.
But yeah, being just "nice" is overrated, and we're seeing in places like politics how it can be manipulated. Sometimes people confuse niceness with actually doing the right thing, and they're not always the same.
‘Now I've kind of developed a reputation for being someone with high empathy but also a low tolerance for bullshit, and found a group of people who seem to respect me for that.” This is the key to life right there! Don’t stop!
"high empathy but also a low tolerance for bullshit" -- love this. Never thought about it in this way, but I hope that's me, too. At work I try to cultivate this, but I think of myself as having a high level of dedication to the project, regardless of "niceness." So if I think the project contains racists stereotypes, I'm gonna say so. It's not nice but I'm thinking of the project first.
Ohhh that's really interesting re: conflating niceness with doing the right thing. That's a super helpful thought...
This is definitely different from culture to culture. I'm Canadian, and then lived in London for 7 years – two places that put a lot of emphasis on niceness or at least aggressive politeness. Then I moved to Germany five years ago. And wow... it's not rudeness, but a different style of communicating. Smiling all the time comes across like there's something wrong with you, and you only say you're sorry if you actually did something to someone. I can't say enough how much I prefer this. I can just directly say I want something, or say it's my turn when someone walks in front of me, or whatever, and I don't get that wave of 'wow she's bitchy' from everyone around me. It is so freeing. I don't find people rude, either, far from it. But this constant polite submissiveness is not part of the requirement in everyday interactions and I didn't realise how draining I found this until I didn't have to do it anymore. Obviously it is not a perfect idyll and there's plenty of misogyny around.
*scribbles in notebook* "Move to Germany"
Plus I'm really enjoying watching him growing up with girls who are not encouraged to be shrinking violets in any way. It's good.
University is nearly free, which is a big reason we're staying put until our son is out of school. ;)
It took aging for me, and reading, and realizing that my gut instincts had been right all along, even though Other People kept telling me otherwise. I wish I had believed myself much, much younger. I took a lot of bullshit up until turning 30 because I had been trained that it was just the way things were, and while I inwardly questioned and rebelled, outwardly I tried to deal with the grossness as best I could. Do you constantly tell your daughter that she doesn't have to be nice to counteract the public message? I don't have kids, but I think about this issue a lot.
I try, but it is hard! She really wants people to like her, which I get. And she is a kind person, and I don't want her to lose that. But I worry about it A LOT.
I think Ali just told us all!! “....someone with high empathy but also a low tolerance for bullshit” is the way to go!
YES
One of my favorite things to do when someone makes a not-so-thinly-veiled comment or offensive joke, I just say "I don't think I understand what you mean." And then I watch them squirm.
Oooh that's good.
I’m 55, and once I learned how to say no it was a game changer. I was 40. Once I turned 50 ‘fuck off’ brought me to the next level of not being nice.
Don't you feel like aging has been such a gift???
There is definitely something about getting older that makes that "no fucks given" attitude come out swinging. Every year that goes by I give less of a shit.
I unlearned niceness in high school working in fast food. Lots of inappropriate things going on with older male coworkers (snapping me on the butt with wet towels, referring to me as “jail bait hoo ha ha” ala Finding Nemo, asking me out while I was underage, offers of alcohol to get me to their apts, etc). I escalated issues to the management and nothing was ever done. I didn’t have supportive parents that I could talk to either. I decided that I would have to defend myself after a year of constant harrassment. I came up with a few one liners to get them to stop but eventually walked off during a dinner rush after 4 years when a line cook commented about my having “perfect BJ lips.” I was 14-18 years old during these incidents.
Oh man, that's fucking awful. But yeah, I think that's how a lot of unlearn niceness. It's interesting because I took the opposite approach when I was in high school and college working retail (I worked at The Body Shop and the number of men who would come in and ask if they could put the lotion on me was astounding): I almost played up my niceness/feigned amusement as a defense mechanism. Like, "oh haha you're so funny!" Which I hate! But also, I think I felt like it would be the only thing that worked in the moment.
I feel like when we were younger, we didn't have the *language* to handle these sorts of situations. In the late aughts, I was straight out of college working as an editor at my hometown paper. I had my long hair in a braid. A 60-something (male obviously) editor told me it was "sexual" and he wanted to "pull it." At the time I laughed it off and went back to work, but current 35-year-old me would tell him to fuck right off and march to HR. I think a lot of my niceness was unlearned as a result of the #metoo movement and the writing that followed it.
Oh EW.
You do what you have to do to stay safe in those situations. Especially when you aren’t sure or know that no one else will protect you.
YUP
When people say something out of line to me I often retort with an eye brow raise and a firm "Excuse me?" I give the person an out before I unleash the bitch. If they have the audacity to say it a second time I'm giving them the fire.
Teach me your ways!!
Once upon a time this incredibly sharp woman released a book called Full Frontal Feminism back in 2007. I was 16 years old at the time and purchased the book from my own money that I earned as a hostess. I read it over and over took every single word to heart. I followed said woman to any platform I could to read her words and learn from her experiences - for over a decade!
My ways are inspired by you. You've already got it in you.
Come on it's too early in the day for me to be crying!! (THANK YOU)
I am struggling with this issue in parenting my eleven year old daughter. I am clearly not on the right track, as she currently thinks of herself as 'kind' and of me as bitchy. I believe some of the anti-bullying messages from elementary school were processed by her as a mandate to be overly obliging and kind at all times.
It's really hard! My 10 year old is also super nice, very accommodating. And I love that she is kind! It is a core part of who she is! But it's so difficult to honor that while also teaching her that it's not unkind to erect boundaries or be clear about what you want and need.
I love how you phrased that is isn't unkind to erect boundaries and express your needs -- I will definitely be using that!
Yes! I struggle with this as well. It seems like as a society what we need right now is unrelenting kindness, but I feel like practicing that would inevitably lead to being exploited.
Right!! What a fucking tightrope
I feel like so much of it is unlearning the concept that you have to be liked---in anyway, there's allways going to be somebody who disapproves
yup - I wrote about women & like-ability some years back and I think it still applies. https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/she-who-dies-most-likes-wins/