Extraordinary points. One issue is that there is no recognition that men should have empathy for women....if a woman is not interested in them, they just need to be conquered. Nor do men care that women might be physically afraid of them getting violent because they are larger (and often can't manage their emotions).
I'm the same age as a certain Supreme Court Justice and remember the days when he was sowing his rich, white, frat-boy "wild oats," when sex-positive feminists distanced themselves from Andrea Dworkin and gave Bill Clinton a pass, and we all thought feminists were supposed to be like the Cool Girl later described by Gillian Flynn. Now I think my Mom had it right when she said it looked to her as though when we finally gave girls permission to say yes, we also took away their permission to say no.
One of those cases when you hate when you are right on the money, yes? So repugnant and yep, agreed on all points. The last paragraph just had me putting my head in my hands....
Whoo boy. Strong stuff; incisive and impeccably argued as always.
I think - and it would be great if I'm wrong! - that we may not like some of the answers to the questions you're asking.
'No one is interested in changing the moral behavior of men. They just want them to follow the rules well enough that the culture has plausible deniability.' Very true and very well said. I would add that, to me, this seems to be true more generally, not just with regard to sexual behaviors.
'Most importantly: If they truly believe that men's sexuality is inherently violent and immoral - why should we listen to anything they have to say about it at all?' This is (mostly) rhetorical - (I think) - but, maybe it's a question worth asking seriously. What if?
I'm not particularly impressed with the track record of men, nor - and this is important - with that of males of many other species. Evolution has shaped species to survive, not necessarily to live in peace and harmony.
I don't know all the specifics - and maybe I should research it thoroughly before posting! :) - but I think testosterone and/or male parentage has something to do with immunity and other (evolutionary) fitness?
Because why else would it persist. I think - and I'm saying this even from my own experience as a man - that testosterone is, mostly, a poison, and that males, who are wandering around freely, full of it, can be considered quite dangerous.
This is NOT an excuse, and, someone might say, 'Not all men!' :) but then I do have to ask why it seems that so comparatively little has been done in human history to civilize men, because wouldn't it be greatly beneficial to end violence (which is mostly a male phenomenon) and war and rape and such?
I can imagine that pessimism may be too fatalistic, and I guess we can't know until some society makes a serious and thorough effort to get men to behave. I don't think it's happened anywhere yet. And then, of course, that society has to survive and thrive, and not get wiped out by some other society which is more willing to resort to force.
I'm all for it, but I wouldn't be subscribing here if I didn't think that men need A LOT of work. The problem is how do you get more men - and the women who support them - to accept that? I just wonder if we ever get there by appealing to our better nature, or not. If we have to wait for men to be -willing- to improve, or to be improved,..... we could be waiting a long, long, long time.
But, what else can we do?
post-script thought: Will men get better unless they're forced to get better? And isn't force kind of the whole problem we're dealing with here?
The law is a low bar. Wouldn't it be wild if industries gave out awards to great artists who were also not sexual predators? Sometimes I think about the great art we don't get to enjoy due to industry practice (or malpractice).
Is "sex" and sexual related behavior "supposed" to be mutually satisfying and comfortable? I, a white man, can live "legally", but in my mind not ethically following laws, but alienating others who are: women, Queer, Trans, BIPOC, differently abled young/younger, old/older and similar. If, we, the men (particularly cis-gendered/het) - choose to live a world that Continues to tacitly accept sexism, racism, gay/lesbian/trans phobias, as well as classism, we will continue to Greatly Hurt Others, as well as Killing and Hurting other men and boys, as well as underneath it all - tearing ourselves apart. Our rates of suicide, opioid addiction, murder, accidental deaths such as car crashes, our alcoholism - and similar - reflect our failure(s) - to become "whole" - caring, loving people. Yes - there are the Weinstein's - criminally narcissistic and dangerous, but there are far more of us who are emotionally isolated, lonely dying too soon, as well as - living "dead inside" us. Shortly - I will be publishing a major writing - that few will probably read - trying to reach a few of us - related to our needs to change - at my: FirstNameLastName(dot)org as well as other places). Thanks!
Extraordinary points. One issue is that there is no recognition that men should have empathy for women....if a woman is not interested in them, they just need to be conquered. Nor do men care that women might be physically afraid of them getting violent because they are larger (and often can't manage their emotions).
Yes yes yes and Bill Cosby was released from jail because they overturned the decision. Disgusting.
I'm the same age as a certain Supreme Court Justice and remember the days when he was sowing his rich, white, frat-boy "wild oats," when sex-positive feminists distanced themselves from Andrea Dworkin and gave Bill Clinton a pass, and we all thought feminists were supposed to be like the Cool Girl later described by Gillian Flynn. Now I think my Mom had it right when she said it looked to her as though when we finally gave girls permission to say yes, we also took away their permission to say no.
Mind-fucking, isn’t it?
One of those cases when you hate when you are right on the money, yes? So repugnant and yep, agreed on all points. The last paragraph just had me putting my head in my hands....
Is Cosby even still in jail?
Whoo boy. Strong stuff; incisive and impeccably argued as always.
I think - and it would be great if I'm wrong! - that we may not like some of the answers to the questions you're asking.
'No one is interested in changing the moral behavior of men. They just want them to follow the rules well enough that the culture has plausible deniability.' Very true and very well said. I would add that, to me, this seems to be true more generally, not just with regard to sexual behaviors.
'Most importantly: If they truly believe that men's sexuality is inherently violent and immoral - why should we listen to anything they have to say about it at all?' This is (mostly) rhetorical - (I think) - but, maybe it's a question worth asking seriously. What if?
I'm not particularly impressed with the track record of men, nor - and this is important - with that of males of many other species. Evolution has shaped species to survive, not necessarily to live in peace and harmony.
I don't know all the specifics - and maybe I should research it thoroughly before posting! :) - but I think testosterone and/or male parentage has something to do with immunity and other (evolutionary) fitness?
Because why else would it persist. I think - and I'm saying this even from my own experience as a man - that testosterone is, mostly, a poison, and that males, who are wandering around freely, full of it, can be considered quite dangerous.
This is NOT an excuse, and, someone might say, 'Not all men!' :) but then I do have to ask why it seems that so comparatively little has been done in human history to civilize men, because wouldn't it be greatly beneficial to end violence (which is mostly a male phenomenon) and war and rape and such?
I can imagine that pessimism may be too fatalistic, and I guess we can't know until some society makes a serious and thorough effort to get men to behave. I don't think it's happened anywhere yet. And then, of course, that society has to survive and thrive, and not get wiped out by some other society which is more willing to resort to force.
I'm all for it, but I wouldn't be subscribing here if I didn't think that men need A LOT of work. The problem is how do you get more men - and the women who support them - to accept that? I just wonder if we ever get there by appealing to our better nature, or not. If we have to wait for men to be -willing- to improve, or to be improved,..... we could be waiting a long, long, long time.
But, what else can we do?
post-script thought: Will men get better unless they're forced to get better? And isn't force kind of the whole problem we're dealing with here?
The law is a low bar. Wouldn't it be wild if industries gave out awards to great artists who were also not sexual predators? Sometimes I think about the great art we don't get to enjoy due to industry practice (or malpractice).
Oh, please notify me when it’s truly the end of hugs because I’m so sick of men using hugs as a Trojan horse for their creepiness.
Nauseated that Louis CK won a Grammy.
Is "sex" and sexual related behavior "supposed" to be mutually satisfying and comfortable? I, a white man, can live "legally", but in my mind not ethically following laws, but alienating others who are: women, Queer, Trans, BIPOC, differently abled young/younger, old/older and similar. If, we, the men (particularly cis-gendered/het) - choose to live a world that Continues to tacitly accept sexism, racism, gay/lesbian/trans phobias, as well as classism, we will continue to Greatly Hurt Others, as well as Killing and Hurting other men and boys, as well as underneath it all - tearing ourselves apart. Our rates of suicide, opioid addiction, murder, accidental deaths such as car crashes, our alcoholism - and similar - reflect our failure(s) - to become "whole" - caring, loving people. Yes - there are the Weinstein's - criminally narcissistic and dangerous, but there are far more of us who are emotionally isolated, lonely dying too soon, as well as - living "dead inside" us. Shortly - I will be publishing a major writing - that few will probably read - trying to reach a few of us - related to our needs to change - at my: FirstNameLastName(dot)org as well as other places). Thanks!
Amen.