I want to ask the Governor why he did this because honestly At the time there were lots of Cuomo Sexuals so if some woman was giving him pushback he should have just dropped it. ALL of us should even if we're not in his position but I feel like it's more difficult to feel sorry for the guy rather than the women in this equation given that untop of that lack of empathy that is inexcusable for the discomfort he caused you can pile on top of that the fact that the man was well equipt to get what he wanted out of someone- just not these 3 women.
I know women sometimes read too deeply between the lines when it's evident a man wrote something so I just want to say that to clarify it's never ok to cross a boundary experience pushback and the SHAME the woman for trying to tell you no. it doesn't matter your stature, but in this context it's especially egregious given that this guy was sexed up fire to plenty of alternatives.
When I was a waitress in my teens and early 20s I was constantly groped. I smiled because I needed tips to live. The sly 'hands-on-hips' move that men use to get past you in bars went on all through my 30s too. The unashamed staring at my tits when I spoke in meetings, reminded me that my body was all that was interesting about me. Funny how it stopped in my 40s. Almost as if just-being-friendly men only touch women they want to shag. Funny how men respect my physical boundaries now because I'm invisible to them.
With all due respect I may be missing something here, he only asked if he could kiss her. This occurred at a wedding reception in a bar in New York City where she had stopped him to they hugged she had a backless dress on so of course his hand is going to touch her bare back, and then he asked very loudly so that everyone could hear if he could kiss her that to me is not sexual misconduct. I truly don’t understand why this is out there being discussed actually it was a very respectful that he asked her. She has never met the governor before and she didn’t even work for him and this happened years and years ago why is this being discussed? She is going to ruin a man’s career cause turmoil in his family a man who has children because he asked to kiss her come on give me a break. I know that this sounds as if I’m against women or something probably but it’s totally the opposite I I fully support women speaking up however let’s not go overboard let’s think about what we’re doing I myself go to a wedding reception and hug and kiss everyone male and female am I gonna lose my job and my reputation and my family over that?
I am a little late chiming in...but what gives Cuomo or any man the right to touch a woman he hardly knows? He does not own her and a woman has every right to decline touch by anyone because it is her body.
"she had a backless dress on so of course his hand is going to touch her bare back" WTF???!!!
"this happened years and years ago why is this being discussed?" How can your mind go to justifying that behavior just because it happened in the past?
Uh oh, I think this might be my mother, disguised as a commenter, ha ha. My mother says the same thing about people "going overboard" about Cuomo every day, and I'm like, yeah, but you grew up in a place where it was a joke that the housemaid (who had no last name, apparently, or none that my mother's family cared about) had babies that looked like all of my mother's male relatives that came to visit the house, and then gave them away into servitude. (Back in the 40s and 50s, in Ecuador). This housemaid apparently even told my mother that she was constantly raped. But nothing was ever done about it. It was her problem. There are still people alive with this mentality, let me remind you all. They're not the people I want in charge or legislating about sexual propriety. There is a serious generational problem when it comes to what women think is acceptable. I've been running into it a lot, because my late husband was a boomer, and I still know a lot of boomer women who say things that continually dismay me on this subject.
She did speak up...by removing his hand off her lower back. Then she got chastised, had her face held in his hands without her consent, and 'asked' if she could be kissed. Seriously, did you read this blog entry before you even commented? And since why is a women's body worth less than a man's reputation?
when I was a hostess at the Mercer Cafe (in the hotel), the managers were all handsy, and then the freaking busboys took that as license to be handsy, too. The only people who showed me any respect were the wait staff, presumably because they depended on me. It was just remarkable, this hierarchy of men who felt entitled to touch the hostess with impunity.
"Anna Ruch, who met Gov. Cuomo at a wedding in 2019, told The New York Times that he put his hand on her bare lower back, called her ‘aggressive’ when she removed it, and then grabbed her face with his hands and asked if he could kiss her."
Ms. Valente, I've never done that. I've never done anything like that. I'm 62 years old. I'm not touchy; I never have been touchy. My father taught me to respect my mother; so I grew up respecting women. Surely I cannot be alone in that.
I'm sure you understand that if you don't do the things I'm describing then I'm not talking about you! I'm also sure you understand that it is overwhelmingly, if not singularly, men who engage in this behavior and that my use of the word 'men' was a deliberate rhetorical device.
Again, I totally get why you wouldn't want to be included in that descriptor, but shifting the focus onto yourself derails the more substantive conversation we're trying to have here. If you haven't heard about "not all men" before - and how what you're saying is actually a pretty common complaint in feminist circles - this article is a good place to start: https://www.vox.com/2014/5/15/5720332/heres-why-women-have-turned-the-not-all-men-objection-into-a-meme
Shifting the focus ... should men try to speak for you, or should men speak for themselves? Why do you argue choice of pronoun?
When you turn reaction into a meme you make fun of object of the meme, the person reacting , no matter your intent.
It's inappropriate for your readers to dismiss maleness from the conversation simply because of the accidental presence of Y chromosomes; and it's inappropriate for you to dismiss maleness from the conversation simply because of the accidental presence of Y chromosomes.
If you insist that males cannot participate because they are males, you should tell them first.
The enlightened writer may have taught itself to not use broad generalization as a rhetorical tool. Broad generalization very often represents somebody inaccurately; and broad generalization very often irritates many readers targeted by the broad generalization, whether the readers understand the generalization, or not.
Why would you want to represent many men inaccurately? Why would you want to irritate many men? It is unlikely that you would want to do those, no matter how it seems..
Something to ponder: Kelsey McKinney is well known, well read, and well respected. If one wants to read Kelsey McKinney, why would one visit Jessica Valenti's blog?
Thanks for responding; you offer thought worth considering.
Note to self: Avoid the use of the first person singular pronoun. It is an imposter, bent upon destruction.
Oookay let's speak from man to man for a minute. Your total lack of understanding the matter as a whole and the old sad "not all men" trope (because yes, not all men, WE KNOW. That's not the point.) although explained clearly, is shameful.
Your stubborness into taking a matter than doesn't even apply to you, but somehow twisting it around to make it about you and make you a victim is not only completely irrelevant and useless, but also shameful.
You are the one shifting the focus here, not her, not anyone else calling you out on it.
Perhaps you should channel your frustration toward the men who behave like this, in numbers large enough that women have to be wary of most the men they meet, rather than the woman pointing out that it is happening.
You're not included if the behavior doesn't apply to you. #NotAllMen is a truly tiresome response that shows up nearly every time a woman shares these stories of pain, embarrassment, humiliation, shame, and courage. It takes the focus away from the story and the storyteller, and puts the focus on someone who isn't even in the story, if their perception of themselves is accurate. So stay out of the story and just listen to it. You can choose to stop including yourself in the generalization, since it doesn't apply.
"Telling me to stay out of the story is the surest way to compel me to continue."
The story Jessica told is about those men who do not respect the boundaries of women. You said you've "never done anything like that." You are saying that you are not the kind of man described in the story. I'm saying, great! You're not the kind of man the story describes. Excellent. Then this story is not about you, and that's good, right? It's a story you aren't part of and don't want to be. So don't put yourself in it. Don't assume you're one of the men being discussed, if you so clearly aren't. I'm not trying to "silence you," nor did I ever tell you to "shut up." What I'm doing is suggesting that rather than asking the storyteller to "stop including [you] in her" story, you could instead recognize that by your own description of your behavior, she can't be including you, and simply listen to it as a Tale of Other People.
You get to comment on the stereotype laid within the tale told by other people, but other listeners, wrongly included in the stereotype may only listen to the tale told by other people?
That sounds like a setting that expects somebody to shut up.
You cannot possibly be so ill equipped for human interaction that exposes you to points of view not your own that you think Ms. Valente's article is about me.
because men DO pile on with not-all-men defensive arguments every single time a woman speaks about how tiring it is to be constantly groped. We end up having to constantly repeat ourselves, 'yes,not all men, but enough men do this that it's a problem'...and the men who argue not-all-men NEVER back down. They keep coming back, arguing, defending, arguing, forcing women to explain themselves, trying to keep the attention on the man's point of view. Instead of thinking 'am I taking up space here? Is this post about women who feel they don't have enough space and am I encroaching on this space? Am I unironically proving that women can't have space to talk without a dude butting in?' Ask yourself these questions when you feel the need to interrupt women.
The author repeatedly used an extremely common collective noun, "men," in her essay, but did not use encompassing noun phrases like "all men" or "men always." In light of this, it seems to me that the accusation you made isn't appropriate to the language she used--and I say "accusation" because you were not simply talking in your first comment, you ended it with a somewhat paradoxical sentence that implied she was referring to you: "Please stop including me in your generalization."
Speaking of language, I have a question and a request for you. The question: How would you suggest that the author's apparently problematic statement(s) be rephrased so you would not feel included? The request: Please consider the possibility that you yourself might be having an overly sensitive moment here, that just because you may have felt included or targeted doesn't mean you actually were in any way. In fact, that feeling itself could be the start of an opportunity for revelation, if you can give it some space to be experienced and processed, rather than protested.
I think about what I'm going to say before I speak. I assure you that I thought about what I read before I began writing. I assure you that I thought more about what I wrote than you did.
And I assure you that I possess English language mastery at least as thorough as yours. I don't you to explain the intricacies of context in written American English to me.
As to your question to me--Jessica Valenti gets paid a lot of money to write; she shouldn't need me to figure out how to not irritate friendly audience
As to your request of me--I am sixty-two years old. I have been stepped on, dismissed entirely, rejected, ignored, ridiculed, made fun of, for at least fifty-seven years, and somebody else started it. My society has informed me for more than five decades. I cannot control whether you think me over-sensitive; at the same time I assure you that I know from whence every scar on my Psyche came. I necessarily respond according to the lessons my environment has taught me, and I my environment has provided more very, very hard, painful, destructive, lessons than any person should have to endure. The best I will offer is that I will TRY not to envy the amount of money Jessica Valenti gets paid to largely ignore decent, though hardened, people like me.
Yes, you are doing, verbally, what the piece about, even though it's about physical touching.
You are refusing to abide by the boundaries women set.
By your commentary, you came here to BE part of the problem.
Not only are you doing it verbally, you are doing it by intent: Not only do you know what you are doing, you are doing it intentionally to show that you can.
The levels of psychosis that that kind of rationalising suggests ... it would be less emotional work to just figure out why you can't stand being told "no" by women.
Clearly, you have no idea who, or what you are talking about.
When I signed up, there was no requirement that I claim the absence of Y chromosomes; there was no admonition that I abide by the boundaries women here set.
All I'd doing here is refusing to let you let you walk all over me simply because I have Y chromosomes.
I have spent the last 10 years being primarily the only woman at leadership tables. It is only in my most recent position (CEO at a nearly all-female nonprofit) that I can truly reflect upon, process and realize how this type of thing is CONSTANTLY present in male-run organizations/companies. I obviously knew that when I was in it, reported it a couple of times as well (always regretting that I did afterwards) but the stark contrast of my experience now compared to then still floors me. The one thing that really resonated with me in this article was the boundaries piece. When I would establish boundaries - from touching me, commenting on my body, telling me my idea isn't a good one and then repackaging it as your idea 15 minutes later, mansplaining - it was ALWAYS met with the reaction described here. I was 'aggressive' or a 'bitch' or 'particular.' Even though you know they are wrong, the gaslighting around this is real and, for me, took being in a different environment to truly realize how much it impacted me.
There have been creepers I've avoided, others I had to deal with along the way. That said, I disagree that it's not that men "don't realize they're making us uncomfortable, they just don't care." It's not callousness, it's callousness-born-of-obliviousness. Even in the face of "aggressive" response, some are so into themselves and their own energy that that's what they're swinging with. They assume anyone who interacts with them is game. They are deaf and blind to serious response. They don't register discomfort or resistance. They don't see or care that it's THEIR GAME. and their territory, and their ball. It's the obliviousness that comes with privilege and power. Then, afterwards, I think some are surprised or shocked that hey, well, not everyone was into that shit after all and well no it was not no-big-deal. But tbh, surrounding females have been complicit in those cultures of power too, from blaming the recipients of shit male behavior to pathologizing survivors to playing the tough-girl "yeah but I can take it-what's-wrong-with-YOU" to preaching love-and-light-style "understanding and peacefulness."
I don't know that "we" can "make men stop touching us" except to help change the culture of entitlement, insularity and solipsism among the powerful, and hold their enablers to account as well. . Not optimistic about politicians, but......
Yes -- but the dynamic is more complicated than a mere "ha ha fuck you" kind of not caring. It's a form of cluelessness. It's also about power, which insulates. How many people in Andrew Cuomo's circle will tell it like it is to him about his behavior? And get through? In those instances many people have sort of laughed along as the [price of admission to the circles to begin with for a while --- so why would an asshole suddenly take it seriously when some one tells them they're being an asshole?
Ah I see. Yes, totally agree re: Cuomo. More broadly, I don't think it's a "fuck you" version of not caring, it's a "I have never had to consider you as a human being" kind of caring. (Though in certain circumstances it's also a "fuck you") So it sounds like we're saying similar things, just in different ways.
I've been thinking about this and how it affects us differently on just like different days. Ex. I'm fat, so I either get ignored (because misogyny + fatphobia) OR it happens with a little twist of "you should feel grateful for the attention because you don't deserve it because you're fat". Anyone know what I mean? and so I've been thinking about how things like size, race, gender presentation, or just the way we look that day complicate our fear in public, because it feels like it changes the layout of the minefield in front of us on a daily basis. Yesterday the mine was here because of X, but today it's over here because of Y and I have no way to predict the change. Does that make sense?
YES I know exactly what you're talking about. I wrote about this a bit in The Purity Myth - but essentially any woman who doesn't fit the mold of what an ideal woman is supposed to be (young, skinny, white, not poor, not disabled, etc) is less likely to be believed about harassment and touching and more likely to be told they should be happy men want to touch them at all. It's framing assault as if it was a compliment.
There's also the fact that we might experience that kind of touching LESS than other women, BECAUSE we're not ideal - which leads to another complicated problem. We then become the "woman they're nice to," making it harder to believe that the person who has always been so chill with us just hurt our friend. Pitting "us against them."
Alternately, we become the women who are ignored. We're not fu*#able, so we don't matter. Not just for touching, but important things like jobs and promotions. "Pretty Privilege" is real. Which theN makes us feel like crap for NOT getting that attention.
God, I hate gender inequality. It messes with your head.
Yes! I remember that, I think. And all of those variables add up to make it impossible to predict how men will feel entitled to our bodies THIS time vs THAT time.
Like lots of other folks, I feel safer (in this aspect, at least) during the pandemic because men are not touching me. I've had this conversation a lot since last year, and I actually have dread about being back in public with them once we can be.
I totally wrote a whole piece about it for the guardian. I don't want the six foot rule to to end, because I've been enjoying not being touched for the last year. All the people saying things like, "Look out, when this is all over I'm hugging everyone in sight," just creep me out, even if they mean well. I don't want to be the world's nice girlfriend anymore. I've actually been practicing my latte art at home, so that if I ever need to get a job in service again (like, a day job, or if the bottom falls out of the economy and people stop buying art and paying for writing, and I never get a job teaching again), at least I'll be able to stand behind a big machine and make pretty things with milk instead of fielding dad jokes, casual invasive touching and constant appraisals of my physical appearance.
I have an extra job as an usher for the orchestra and I don't know if I can make myself go back once they are live again. My supervisor emailed to check in and asked if I would want to come back in the summer or the fall. Because I don't trust people, in general, to do the right thing COVID-wise, and I don't trust old white guys to stay away I can't imagine I'll go back before the fall, if at all.
I’ve had a new appreciation for the niqab. I had read lots of pieces in which women explained that they liked the privacy of it and I totally did not get that until now. I cannot express how much I enjoy NOT smiling at people.
Yep. The mask is great for not being forced to smile at people. I've noticed a lot of women in the media wearing suits, like pants suits. It's a sort of western niqab. I like it. I've been wearing coveralls for the last few years and even to parties since my husband died (actually, I even wore a halter top jumpsuit as a wedding dress before he died) because wearing pretty or girly, revealing dresses began making me feel too vulnerable to the disgustingly aggressive and insensitive men who acted like I was "back on the market." (NB: I am never ever "on the market." I am not a commodity.) One of my little brothers actually said, the other da as we watched a woman walk by in a jumpsuit, "Why do women wear jumpsuits? Don't they realize no one looks good in them?" And I was like, THAT IS WHY: because men generally don't like them. And it's not about how good we look in them, but how invulnerable and practical we feel wearing them. (Also, I happen to think we DO look good in them.) It is nice to not always be dressed in ways that make us appealing to men. It feels like a freaking vacation. Vacation forever!
Funny how the just-being-friendly dudes stop massaging your shoulders, stop rubbing up against you, stop leaning on you at work, stop holding your hips as they move past you once you hit 42. We must become infertile and therefore invisible to stop them touching us.
I'm 56 and until the shutdown, I was still being regularly mauled, so, no, it's not about age. It's about power. I was working in a cafe as a "countergirl." That made me everyone's property, even after I quit to teach. It was a small town, and I still frequented the cafe because I liked the place, otherwise I wouldn't have worked there. They all still saw me as public property. Also, I gotta say, wherever you go there's always a man older than you who thinks you're a "younger woman" he could have, even if you're in your 50s. Or a man lower on the rung of the ladder who'll settle for you when he can't get someone younger. Or some annoying lad of 45 who wants and "older woman," har har. Ugh. I suppose I have another strike against me being bi-racial and looking "exotic" to men. The sexual colonialism never ends. Being a woman of color seems to "compensate" for aging. It's just one more "extra" like when men consider buying a car. Skinny? Check. Old? Yeah, but look at that olive skin, it's hot (I've actually seen texts to this effect sent by the last guy I dated, to a former mutual friend). The only thing that puts men off is when I open my mouth and begin talking. That usually weeds out everyone except the ones who want the triumph of eventually slapping down a strong woman when she least sees it coming. I am so through with men. Deeply committed to dying alone, happy and serene!
Ugh. "You’d be hard-pressed to find a woman who hasn’t endured a similar situation." It's only too true. You know, I did a whole illustrated piece about this, and you know what's interesting? It was hard to find it just now with a google search even though it ran in The New Yorker -- it's a series of drawings about men's hands that have assaulted my body: I remember every single time it happened, because it was always such an infuriating violation. There was even a time when for weeks I couldn't stop flinching every time a man walked too close to me, after one grabbed my breast as I passed him on the sidewalk. That one didn't make the cut, but all the other hands in the story were hands of men I knew, men I had to see again and again. I hope you don't mind my posting the link here, it's concise and pertinent: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/this-is-the-hand-a-response-to-recent-news
Midway through this pandemic (let's hope it was midway, because it's going on way too long already), I wrote a piece for the Guardian about how "Covid freed me from politeness and unwanted touching" -- because I was still fuming over one of the last times a guy touched me repeatedly, putting his hands on my shoulders in spite of how I'd wince at him, was just before the shutdown.
Has anyone read "Down Girl: The logic of misogyny, by Kate Manne? There's a great line in it (actually several great lines throughout) about how a man's hatred and hostility could be triggered when he perceived a woman as having committed a "violation of patriarchal norms and expectations" when she, for example, refuses to allow herself to be manhandled with a smile. Besides making terrible tips at the cafe I worked at for five years before the pandemic, I risked that hatred and rage every time I grovel for a patron after being touched or appraised for my physical presence. You can palpably feel that poor woman's fear as she looks at Cuomo with her face in his hands.
I once brought up the young woman I knew who had the courage to tell men that their comments or touches made her uncomfortable. If only we were all safe doing so, but sometimes we're not. We have to constantly measure the danger of speaking up for ourselves. The more we do it, though, the more we can do it. Men will have to get used to it.
Meanwhile, six feet apart from men forever would totally work for me.
Thank you for sharing your link to "This Is the Hand". I appreciated it and the power behind it. Art is such a powerful tool.
I read (audiobook) "Down Girl: The logic of misogyny, by Kate Manne. It was validating and powerful read, but at the same time super dense. I wish I had a feminist friends to discuss these things with.
Agreed, six feet apart from men forever would totally work for me.
That’s what I like about this newsletter: we can discuss things like this safely and without being called “aggressive” or accused of just complaining about things that we supposedly should just be or get used to. I’ve been reading Caliban and the Witch along with friends and we started talking about it in a radio show/podcast one of us does and even we found it hard to stop blowing off steam and actually discuss the book. One does need ones fellow women to talk about these things with or else we just begin to feel crazy.
Sorry, "every time I DIDN'T grovel" -- I wish I could edit comments! Sometimes the window is too small on my screen and I can't see the whole comment to make sure it's grammatically correct.
It's impossible to be a woman and just live your life in a world where removing a man's hand from your body is seen as "aggressive". I cannot count the number of times I have felt forced to laugh off a spectrum of physical attention to spare myself from retaliation. I remember in my early-to-mid twenties in a dance class there was one creeper I always avoided. One day he disappeared, and I learned he had had the habit of putting his hand in his partner's armpit and sliding it down while asking "where is your waist?" It was just another example of men noticing they’re making women uncomfortable, but not caring.
Yes! It's like the ultimate gaslighting - they're the ones invading your personal space, but if you react with anything other than a smile you're the asshole aggressive one
As a grim addendum to this: I kind of hope the dudes who did this to me over time just didn’t care...but I suspect some of them knew and liked being able to do it anyway.
yes, exactly. They knew and they enjoyed their impunity. Infuriating. The last guy who did that to me had been asking me out (ambiguously, of course, like casual dinner at his desk after hours at the office kind of date) and seemed to think he had power over me because he'd been offering me a sort of editorship or at least a few artwork commissions in some ridiculous magazine he was editing at -- as if the pay he was offering would actually make a difference in my ability to pay rent. That was laughable in itself. But I actually had been kind enough not to embarrass him publicly because he was doing this in front of all his friends and colleagues -- which I guess he also thought was his advantage. And of course once I actually DID tell him to back off (yes, I finally did) the flimsy little offer disappeared into thin air.
Never, in my entire life will I ever forget the discomfort, creepiness, wanting-to- literally-withdraw-inside-myself feeling that comes along with a man’s unwanted touch. I’m so glad you wrote about this. I’ve literally pried mens’ hands from my waist in bars only to have them immediately grab hold of me again, finding myself dumbfounded that they didn’t they didn’t seem to understand/care I was trying to get away from them. I only understand now that it was about power and domination, I wish I understood that then. Now I would rip their eyeballs out if they pulled that shit.
Oh, man, I didn't think I'd have anything to add about this, but I do. My brother was over and while we were watching TV a bit came on about how Cuomo put his hand in the small of that poor woman's back, and I just lost it, and began yelling about how disgusting that feels, and that it's just never appropriate, and to my astonishment he actually looked surprised. I was like, really? You didn't know this? So I pursued, and told him that it is just not done, it's just not ever done, never ever touch a woman in the small of her back unless you're intimate with her (and on good terms). He's only two years younger than me, and has been pretty good about not being a jerk (thanks to me explaining things to him, but I guess. this was one thing I missed). He looked genuinely surprised, and the only possible explanation I can think of is that he has always met his girlfriends at hillbilly dance bars, where women have all basically consented in advance to being touched while dancing as a matter of the traditional couples-touching dance moves? No, no, no, I told him. And then I told him, "Tell your friends! Spread the word."
I want to ask the Governor why he did this because honestly At the time there were lots of Cuomo Sexuals so if some woman was giving him pushback he should have just dropped it. ALL of us should even if we're not in his position but I feel like it's more difficult to feel sorry for the guy rather than the women in this equation given that untop of that lack of empathy that is inexcusable for the discomfort he caused you can pile on top of that the fact that the man was well equipt to get what he wanted out of someone- just not these 3 women.
I know women sometimes read too deeply between the lines when it's evident a man wrote something so I just want to say that to clarify it's never ok to cross a boundary experience pushback and the SHAME the woman for trying to tell you no. it doesn't matter your stature, but in this context it's especially egregious given that this guy was sexed up fire to plenty of alternatives.
When I was a waitress in my teens and early 20s I was constantly groped. I smiled because I needed tips to live. The sly 'hands-on-hips' move that men use to get past you in bars went on all through my 30s too. The unashamed staring at my tits when I spoke in meetings, reminded me that my body was all that was interesting about me. Funny how it stopped in my 40s. Almost as if just-being-friendly men only touch women they want to shag. Funny how men respect my physical boundaries now because I'm invisible to them.
With all due respect I may be missing something here, he only asked if he could kiss her. This occurred at a wedding reception in a bar in New York City where she had stopped him to they hugged she had a backless dress on so of course his hand is going to touch her bare back, and then he asked very loudly so that everyone could hear if he could kiss her that to me is not sexual misconduct. I truly don’t understand why this is out there being discussed actually it was a very respectful that he asked her. She has never met the governor before and she didn’t even work for him and this happened years and years ago why is this being discussed? She is going to ruin a man’s career cause turmoil in his family a man who has children because he asked to kiss her come on give me a break. I know that this sounds as if I’m against women or something probably but it’s totally the opposite I I fully support women speaking up however let’s not go overboard let’s think about what we’re doing I myself go to a wedding reception and hug and kiss everyone male and female am I gonna lose my job and my reputation and my family over that?
I am a little late chiming in...but what gives Cuomo or any man the right to touch a woman he hardly knows? He does not own her and a woman has every right to decline touch by anyone because it is her body.
Really? Really? You think you are making sense?
"she had a backless dress on so of course his hand is going to touch her bare back" WTF???!!!
"this happened years and years ago why is this being discussed?" How can your mind go to justifying that behavior just because it happened in the past?
What happened to you? Are you okay?
Do you ask the men you hug if you can kiss them, too?
First of all, it was in 2019..not years and years ago
With all due respect, did you read how he GRABBED HER FACE..and also called her aggressive for removing his hand?
Girl, be quiet if all you're going to do is defend a predator.
Uh oh, I think this might be my mother, disguised as a commenter, ha ha. My mother says the same thing about people "going overboard" about Cuomo every day, and I'm like, yeah, but you grew up in a place where it was a joke that the housemaid (who had no last name, apparently, or none that my mother's family cared about) had babies that looked like all of my mother's male relatives that came to visit the house, and then gave them away into servitude. (Back in the 40s and 50s, in Ecuador). This housemaid apparently even told my mother that she was constantly raped. But nothing was ever done about it. It was her problem. There are still people alive with this mentality, let me remind you all. They're not the people I want in charge or legislating about sexual propriety. There is a serious generational problem when it comes to what women think is acceptable. I've been running into it a lot, because my late husband was a boomer, and I still know a lot of boomer women who say things that continually dismay me on this subject.
Sorry, I should have put quotes to show that "her problem" meant it was not considered the problem of the family that employed her.
She did speak up...by removing his hand off her lower back. Then she got chastised, had her face held in his hands without her consent, and 'asked' if she could be kissed. Seriously, did you read this blog entry before you even commented? And since why is a women's body worth less than a man's reputation?
I feel strongly that women don't deserve sexual disrespect even if dressed scantily, being friendly, etc.
I want to give a particular shout out to women who are wait staff or hostesses who endure being touched and groped as part of their jobs, often do so in silence because their base wage is so low, that if they displease patrons by drawing boundaries they don't get tips and without tips, they can't eat. And that scenario is one of the reasons men believe that women's bodies are public property, cause it's part of the culture, nearly restaurant offers the chance to do this to women without much repercussion, and often women must flirt just to GET enough of a wage to eat because everyone's doing it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/10/27/how-tipping-is-linked-to-sexual-harassment-in-restaurants-readers-stories/ And it's worse now of course: https://www.eater.com/21755485/survey-of-tipped-workers-finds-increase-in-harassment-throught-covid-19-pandemic
And this is all worse
when I was a hostess at the Mercer Cafe (in the hotel), the managers were all handsy, and then the freaking busboys took that as license to be handsy, too. The only people who showed me any respect were the wait staff, presumably because they depended on me. It was just remarkable, this hierarchy of men who felt entitled to touch the hostess with impunity.
I work at a resort hotel and it's just endemic, especially for the waitstaff that works on the beach who are treated like they are a menu item!
Yes, please. The worst harassment I ever got was when I worked in the service industry. It's horrific. Thanks for bringing this up.
"Anna Ruch, who met Gov. Cuomo at a wedding in 2019, told The New York Times that he put his hand on her bare lower back, called her ‘aggressive’ when she removed it, and then grabbed her face with his hands and asked if he could kiss her."
Ms. Valente, I've never done that. I've never done anything like that. I'm 62 years old. I'm not touchy; I never have been touchy. My father taught me to respect my mother; so I grew up respecting women. Surely I cannot be alone in that.
You are NOT being overly sensitive.
But "men" is a very big generalization.
Please stop including me in your generalization.
I'm sure you understand that if you don't do the things I'm describing then I'm not talking about you! I'm also sure you understand that it is overwhelmingly, if not singularly, men who engage in this behavior and that my use of the word 'men' was a deliberate rhetorical device.
Again, I totally get why you wouldn't want to be included in that descriptor, but shifting the focus onto yourself derails the more substantive conversation we're trying to have here. If you haven't heard about "not all men" before - and how what you're saying is actually a pretty common complaint in feminist circles - this article is a good place to start: https://www.vox.com/2014/5/15/5720332/heres-why-women-have-turned-the-not-all-men-objection-into-a-meme
Shifting the focus ... should men try to speak for you, or should men speak for themselves? Why do you argue choice of pronoun?
When you turn reaction into a meme you make fun of object of the meme, the person reacting , no matter your intent.
It's inappropriate for your readers to dismiss maleness from the conversation simply because of the accidental presence of Y chromosomes; and it's inappropriate for you to dismiss maleness from the conversation simply because of the accidental presence of Y chromosomes.
If you insist that males cannot participate because they are males, you should tell them first.
The enlightened writer may have taught itself to not use broad generalization as a rhetorical tool. Broad generalization very often represents somebody inaccurately; and broad generalization very often irritates many readers targeted by the broad generalization, whether the readers understand the generalization, or not.
Why would you want to represent many men inaccurately? Why would you want to irritate many men? It is unlikely that you would want to do those, no matter how it seems..
Something to ponder: Kelsey McKinney is well known, well read, and well respected. If one wants to read Kelsey McKinney, why would one visit Jessica Valenti's blog?
Thanks for responding; you offer thought worth considering.
Note to self: Avoid the use of the first person singular pronoun. It is an imposter, bent upon destruction.
Oookay let's speak from man to man for a minute. Your total lack of understanding the matter as a whole and the old sad "not all men" trope (because yes, not all men, WE KNOW. That's not the point.) although explained clearly, is shameful.
Your stubborness into taking a matter than doesn't even apply to you, but somehow twisting it around to make it about you and make you a victim is not only completely irrelevant and useless, but also shameful.
You are the one shifting the focus here, not her, not anyone else calling you out on it.
You should know better.
Very well said Nate
Perhaps you should channel your frustration toward the men who behave like this, in numbers large enough that women have to be wary of most the men they meet, rather than the woman pointing out that it is happening.
I do point it out to men who behave as Ms. Valenti describes, as often as I can; and when I do I am not nearly as courteous as I am here.
Nobody believes this for a second.
You're not included if the behavior doesn't apply to you. #NotAllMen is a truly tiresome response that shows up nearly every time a woman shares these stories of pain, embarrassment, humiliation, shame, and courage. It takes the focus away from the story and the storyteller, and puts the focus on someone who isn't even in the story, if their perception of themselves is accurate. So stay out of the story and just listen to it. You can choose to stop including yourself in the generalization, since it doesn't apply.
Telling me to stay out of the story is the surest way to compel me to continue.
I didn't make excuse for men; I didn't deny the abuse. I pointed out that the generalization is unfortunate.
I respect you, as a woman; perhaps you should respect me, rather than try to silence me.
If you want me to continue, then by all means, continue. I don't shut up for anybody, especially for people who tell me to shut up.
"Telling me to stay out of the story is the surest way to compel me to continue."
The story Jessica told is about those men who do not respect the boundaries of women. You said you've "never done anything like that." You are saying that you are not the kind of man described in the story. I'm saying, great! You're not the kind of man the story describes. Excellent. Then this story is not about you, and that's good, right? It's a story you aren't part of and don't want to be. So don't put yourself in it. Don't assume you're one of the men being discussed, if you so clearly aren't. I'm not trying to "silence you," nor did I ever tell you to "shut up." What I'm doing is suggesting that rather than asking the storyteller to "stop including [you] in her" story, you could instead recognize that by your own description of your behavior, she can't be including you, and simply listen to it as a Tale of Other People.
You get to comment on the stereotype laid within the tale told by other people, but other listeners, wrongly included in the stereotype may only listen to the tale told by other people?
That sounds like a setting that expects somebody to shut up.
"Telling me to stay out of the story is the surest way to compel me to continue."
You just proved her, and Jessica's, point.
You ARE who we are talking about.
I'm talking; I'm not touching anybody.
You cannot possibly be so ill equipped for human interaction that exposes you to points of view not your own that you think Ms. Valente's article is about me.
because men DO pile on with not-all-men defensive arguments every single time a woman speaks about how tiring it is to be constantly groped. We end up having to constantly repeat ourselves, 'yes,not all men, but enough men do this that it's a problem'...and the men who argue not-all-men NEVER back down. They keep coming back, arguing, defending, arguing, forcing women to explain themselves, trying to keep the attention on the man's point of view. Instead of thinking 'am I taking up space here? Is this post about women who feel they don't have enough space and am I encroaching on this space? Am I unironically proving that women can't have space to talk without a dude butting in?' Ask yourself these questions when you feel the need to interrupt women.
A diller, a dollar, a hit dog will holler.
The author repeatedly used an extremely common collective noun, "men," in her essay, but did not use encompassing noun phrases like "all men" or "men always." In light of this, it seems to me that the accusation you made isn't appropriate to the language she used--and I say "accusation" because you were not simply talking in your first comment, you ended it with a somewhat paradoxical sentence that implied she was referring to you: "Please stop including me in your generalization."
Speaking of language, I have a question and a request for you. The question: How would you suggest that the author's apparently problematic statement(s) be rephrased so you would not feel included? The request: Please consider the possibility that you yourself might be having an overly sensitive moment here, that just because you may have felt included or targeted doesn't mean you actually were in any way. In fact, that feeling itself could be the start of an opportunity for revelation, if you can give it some space to be experienced and processed, rather than protested.
I think about what I'm going to say before I speak. I assure you that I thought about what I read before I began writing. I assure you that I thought more about what I wrote than you did.
And I assure you that I possess English language mastery at least as thorough as yours. I don't you to explain the intricacies of context in written American English to me.
As to your question to me--Jessica Valenti gets paid a lot of money to write; she shouldn't need me to figure out how to not irritate friendly audience
As to your request of me--I am sixty-two years old. I have been stepped on, dismissed entirely, rejected, ignored, ridiculed, made fun of, for at least fifty-seven years, and somebody else started it. My society has informed me for more than five decades. I cannot control whether you think me over-sensitive; at the same time I assure you that I know from whence every scar on my Psyche came. I necessarily respond according to the lessons my environment has taught me, and I my environment has provided more very, very hard, painful, destructive, lessons than any person should have to endure. The best I will offer is that I will TRY not to envy the amount of money Jessica Valenti gets paid to largely ignore decent, though hardened, people like me.
Yes, you are doing, verbally, what the piece about, even though it's about physical touching.
You are refusing to abide by the boundaries women set.
By your commentary, you came here to BE part of the problem.
Not only are you doing it verbally, you are doing it by intent: Not only do you know what you are doing, you are doing it intentionally to show that you can.
The levels of psychosis that that kind of rationalising suggests ... it would be less emotional work to just figure out why you can't stand being told "no" by women.
If I sound like a victim now, it is because YOU are attacking me.
Clearly, you have no idea who, or what you are talking about.
When I signed up, there was no requirement that I claim the absence of Y chromosomes; there was no admonition that I abide by the boundaries women here set.
All I'd doing here is refusing to let you let you walk all over me simply because I have Y chromosomes.
I have spent the last 10 years being primarily the only woman at leadership tables. It is only in my most recent position (CEO at a nearly all-female nonprofit) that I can truly reflect upon, process and realize how this type of thing is CONSTANTLY present in male-run organizations/companies. I obviously knew that when I was in it, reported it a couple of times as well (always regretting that I did afterwards) but the stark contrast of my experience now compared to then still floors me. The one thing that really resonated with me in this article was the boundaries piece. When I would establish boundaries - from touching me, commenting on my body, telling me my idea isn't a good one and then repackaging it as your idea 15 minutes later, mansplaining - it was ALWAYS met with the reaction described here. I was 'aggressive' or a 'bitch' or 'particular.' Even though you know they are wrong, the gaslighting around this is real and, for me, took being in a different environment to truly realize how much it impacted me.
YES! It is truly infuriating.
There have been creepers I've avoided, others I had to deal with along the way. That said, I disagree that it's not that men "don't realize they're making us uncomfortable, they just don't care." It's not callousness, it's callousness-born-of-obliviousness. Even in the face of "aggressive" response, some are so into themselves and their own energy that that's what they're swinging with. They assume anyone who interacts with them is game. They are deaf and blind to serious response. They don't register discomfort or resistance. They don't see or care that it's THEIR GAME. and their territory, and their ball. It's the obliviousness that comes with privilege and power. Then, afterwards, I think some are surprised or shocked that hey, well, not everyone was into that shit after all and well no it was not no-big-deal. But tbh, surrounding females have been complicit in those cultures of power too, from blaming the recipients of shit male behavior to pathologizing survivors to playing the tough-girl "yeah but I can take it-what's-wrong-with-YOU" to preaching love-and-light-style "understanding and peacefulness."
I don't know that "we" can "make men stop touching us" except to help change the culture of entitlement, insularity and solipsism among the powerful, and hold their enablers to account as well. . Not optimistic about politicians, but......
I totally hear what you're saying - but don't you think being oblivious is just another way of not caring?
Yes -- but the dynamic is more complicated than a mere "ha ha fuck you" kind of not caring. It's a form of cluelessness. It's also about power, which insulates. How many people in Andrew Cuomo's circle will tell it like it is to him about his behavior? And get through? In those instances many people have sort of laughed along as the [price of admission to the circles to begin with for a while --- so why would an asshole suddenly take it seriously when some one tells them they're being an asshole?
Ah I see. Yes, totally agree re: Cuomo. More broadly, I don't think it's a "fuck you" version of not caring, it's a "I have never had to consider you as a human being" kind of caring. (Though in certain circumstances it's also a "fuck you") So it sounds like we're saying similar things, just in different ways.
Also, they're not "oblivious", they know exactly what they're doing.
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/
I've been thinking about this and how it affects us differently on just like different days. Ex. I'm fat, so I either get ignored (because misogyny + fatphobia) OR it happens with a little twist of "you should feel grateful for the attention because you don't deserve it because you're fat". Anyone know what I mean? and so I've been thinking about how things like size, race, gender presentation, or just the way we look that day complicate our fear in public, because it feels like it changes the layout of the minefield in front of us on a daily basis. Yesterday the mine was here because of X, but today it's over here because of Y and I have no way to predict the change. Does that make sense?
I do know what you mean and it makes perfect sense.
YES I know exactly what you're talking about. I wrote about this a bit in The Purity Myth - but essentially any woman who doesn't fit the mold of what an ideal woman is supposed to be (young, skinny, white, not poor, not disabled, etc) is less likely to be believed about harassment and touching and more likely to be told they should be happy men want to touch them at all. It's framing assault as if it was a compliment.
There's also the fact that we might experience that kind of touching LESS than other women, BECAUSE we're not ideal - which leads to another complicated problem. We then become the "woman they're nice to," making it harder to believe that the person who has always been so chill with us just hurt our friend. Pitting "us against them."
Alternately, we become the women who are ignored. We're not fu*#able, so we don't matter. Not just for touching, but important things like jobs and promotions. "Pretty Privilege" is real. Which theN makes us feel like crap for NOT getting that attention.
God, I hate gender inequality. It messes with your head.
Yes! I remember that, I think. And all of those variables add up to make it impossible to predict how men will feel entitled to our bodies THIS time vs THAT time.
Right - it makes it so much more fraught because there is no way to know what to expect.
Like lots of other folks, I feel safer (in this aspect, at least) during the pandemic because men are not touching me. I've had this conversation a lot since last year, and I actually have dread about being back in public with them once we can be.
I totally wrote a whole piece about it for the guardian. I don't want the six foot rule to to end, because I've been enjoying not being touched for the last year. All the people saying things like, "Look out, when this is all over I'm hugging everyone in sight," just creep me out, even if they mean well. I don't want to be the world's nice girlfriend anymore. I've actually been practicing my latte art at home, so that if I ever need to get a job in service again (like, a day job, or if the bottom falls out of the economy and people stop buying art and paying for writing, and I never get a job teaching again), at least I'll be able to stand behind a big machine and make pretty things with milk instead of fielding dad jokes, casual invasive touching and constant appraisals of my physical appearance.
I have an extra job as an usher for the orchestra and I don't know if I can make myself go back once they are live again. My supervisor emailed to check in and asked if I would want to come back in the summer or the fall. Because I don't trust people, in general, to do the right thing COVID-wise, and I don't trust old white guys to stay away I can't imagine I'll go back before the fall, if at all.
I've heard this from other women, too - it's so interesting (and depressing)
I’ve had a new appreciation for the niqab. I had read lots of pieces in which women explained that they liked the privacy of it and I totally did not get that until now. I cannot express how much I enjoy NOT smiling at people.
Yep. The mask is great for not being forced to smile at people. I've noticed a lot of women in the media wearing suits, like pants suits. It's a sort of western niqab. I like it. I've been wearing coveralls for the last few years and even to parties since my husband died (actually, I even wore a halter top jumpsuit as a wedding dress before he died) because wearing pretty or girly, revealing dresses began making me feel too vulnerable to the disgustingly aggressive and insensitive men who acted like I was "back on the market." (NB: I am never ever "on the market." I am not a commodity.) One of my little brothers actually said, the other da as we watched a woman walk by in a jumpsuit, "Why do women wear jumpsuits? Don't they realize no one looks good in them?" And I was like, THAT IS WHY: because men generally don't like them. And it's not about how good we look in them, but how invulnerable and practical we feel wearing them. (Also, I happen to think we DO look good in them.) It is nice to not always be dressed in ways that make us appealing to men. It feels like a freaking vacation. Vacation forever!
How can we make men stop touching us? Grow old, that tends to fix the problem.
Funny how the just-being-friendly dudes stop massaging your shoulders, stop rubbing up against you, stop leaning on you at work, stop holding your hips as they move past you once you hit 42. We must become infertile and therefore invisible to stop them touching us.
TRUE. I have to say the older I've gotten, the less it happens - but it hasn't stopped entirely yet!
I'm 56 and until the shutdown, I was still being regularly mauled, so, no, it's not about age. It's about power. I was working in a cafe as a "countergirl." That made me everyone's property, even after I quit to teach. It was a small town, and I still frequented the cafe because I liked the place, otherwise I wouldn't have worked there. They all still saw me as public property. Also, I gotta say, wherever you go there's always a man older than you who thinks you're a "younger woman" he could have, even if you're in your 50s. Or a man lower on the rung of the ladder who'll settle for you when he can't get someone younger. Or some annoying lad of 45 who wants and "older woman," har har. Ugh. I suppose I have another strike against me being bi-racial and looking "exotic" to men. The sexual colonialism never ends. Being a woman of color seems to "compensate" for aging. It's just one more "extra" like when men consider buying a car. Skinny? Check. Old? Yeah, but look at that olive skin, it's hot (I've actually seen texts to this effect sent by the last guy I dated, to a former mutual friend). The only thing that puts men off is when I open my mouth and begin talking. That usually weeds out everyone except the ones who want the triumph of eventually slapping down a strong woman when she least sees it coming. I am so through with men. Deeply committed to dying alone, happy and serene!
Thank you for this.
Ugh. "You’d be hard-pressed to find a woman who hasn’t endured a similar situation." It's only too true. You know, I did a whole illustrated piece about this, and you know what's interesting? It was hard to find it just now with a google search even though it ran in The New Yorker -- it's a series of drawings about men's hands that have assaulted my body: I remember every single time it happened, because it was always such an infuriating violation. There was even a time when for weeks I couldn't stop flinching every time a man walked too close to me, after one grabbed my breast as I passed him on the sidewalk. That one didn't make the cut, but all the other hands in the story were hands of men I knew, men I had to see again and again. I hope you don't mind my posting the link here, it's concise and pertinent: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/this-is-the-hand-a-response-to-recent-news
Midway through this pandemic (let's hope it was midway, because it's going on way too long already), I wrote a piece for the Guardian about how "Covid freed me from politeness and unwanted touching" -- because I was still fuming over one of the last times a guy touched me repeatedly, putting his hands on my shoulders in spite of how I'd wince at him, was just before the shutdown.
Has anyone read "Down Girl: The logic of misogyny, by Kate Manne? There's a great line in it (actually several great lines throughout) about how a man's hatred and hostility could be triggered when he perceived a woman as having committed a "violation of patriarchal norms and expectations" when she, for example, refuses to allow herself to be manhandled with a smile. Besides making terrible tips at the cafe I worked at for five years before the pandemic, I risked that hatred and rage every time I grovel for a patron after being touched or appraised for my physical presence. You can palpably feel that poor woman's fear as she looks at Cuomo with her face in his hands.
I once brought up the young woman I knew who had the courage to tell men that their comments or touches made her uncomfortable. If only we were all safe doing so, but sometimes we're not. We have to constantly measure the danger of speaking up for ourselves. The more we do it, though, the more we can do it. Men will have to get used to it.
Meanwhile, six feet apart from men forever would totally work for me.
What a powerful piece! Thank you for sharing this.
Oh man, Carolita - those illustrations are amazing. (And always feel free to share!)
Six feet forever.
#sixfeetforever needs to trend with this new meaning; do not fucking touch women without consent, ever.
You know, twenty feet is not so bad, either. heh. Down girl is on my TBR list. Maybe I'll move it up to the top! I loved This Is the Hand, too.
Thank you for sharing your link to "This Is the Hand". I appreciated it and the power behind it. Art is such a powerful tool.
I read (audiobook) "Down Girl: The logic of misogyny, by Kate Manne. It was validating and powerful read, but at the same time super dense. I wish I had a feminist friends to discuss these things with.
Agreed, six feet apart from men forever would totally work for me.
That’s what I like about this newsletter: we can discuss things like this safely and without being called “aggressive” or accused of just complaining about things that we supposedly should just be or get used to. I’ve been reading Caliban and the Witch along with friends and we started talking about it in a radio show/podcast one of us does and even we found it hard to stop blowing off steam and actually discuss the book. One does need ones fellow women to talk about these things with or else we just begin to feel crazy.
Sorry, "every time I DIDN'T grovel" -- I wish I could edit comments! Sometimes the window is too small on my screen and I can't see the whole comment to make sure it's grammatically correct.
It's impossible to be a woman and just live your life in a world where removing a man's hand from your body is seen as "aggressive". I cannot count the number of times I have felt forced to laugh off a spectrum of physical attention to spare myself from retaliation. I remember in my early-to-mid twenties in a dance class there was one creeper I always avoided. One day he disappeared, and I learned he had had the habit of putting his hand in his partner's armpit and sliding it down while asking "where is your waist?" It was just another example of men noticing they’re making women uncomfortable, but not caring.
Yes! It's like the ultimate gaslighting - they're the ones invading your personal space, but if you react with anything other than a smile you're the asshole aggressive one
As a grim addendum to this: I kind of hope the dudes who did this to me over time just didn’t care...but I suspect some of them knew and liked being able to do it anyway.
Unfortunately, I'm sure you're right.
yes, exactly. They knew and they enjoyed their impunity. Infuriating. The last guy who did that to me had been asking me out (ambiguously, of course, like casual dinner at his desk after hours at the office kind of date) and seemed to think he had power over me because he'd been offering me a sort of editorship or at least a few artwork commissions in some ridiculous magazine he was editing at -- as if the pay he was offering would actually make a difference in my ability to pay rent. That was laughable in itself. But I actually had been kind enough not to embarrass him publicly because he was doing this in front of all his friends and colleagues -- which I guess he also thought was his advantage. And of course once I actually DID tell him to back off (yes, I finally did) the flimsy little offer disappeared into thin air.
Never, in my entire life will I ever forget the discomfort, creepiness, wanting-to- literally-withdraw-inside-myself feeling that comes along with a man’s unwanted touch. I’m so glad you wrote about this. I’ve literally pried mens’ hands from my waist in bars only to have them immediately grab hold of me again, finding myself dumbfounded that they didn’t they didn’t seem to understand/care I was trying to get away from them. I only understand now that it was about power and domination, I wish I understood that then. Now I would rip their eyeballs out if they pulled that shit.
YUP.
A thousand times this!!! When men touch my lower back it's like my spine wants to crawl out of my body. And they think absolutely nothing of it!
Exactly. It's so gross and it never occurs to them to just...not do it
Oh, man, I didn't think I'd have anything to add about this, but I do. My brother was over and while we were watching TV a bit came on about how Cuomo put his hand in the small of that poor woman's back, and I just lost it, and began yelling about how disgusting that feels, and that it's just never appropriate, and to my astonishment he actually looked surprised. I was like, really? You didn't know this? So I pursued, and told him that it is just not done, it's just not ever done, never ever touch a woman in the small of her back unless you're intimate with her (and on good terms). He's only two years younger than me, and has been pretty good about not being a jerk (thanks to me explaining things to him, but I guess. this was one thing I missed). He looked genuinely surprised, and the only possible explanation I can think of is that he has always met his girlfriends at hillbilly dance bars, where women have all basically consented in advance to being touched while dancing as a matter of the traditional couples-touching dance moves? No, no, no, I told him. And then I told him, "Tell your friends! Spread the word."