I want to ask the Governor why he did this because honestly At the time there were lots of Cuomo Sexuals so if some woman was giving him pushback he should have just dropped it. ALL of us should even if we're not in his position but I feel like it's more difficult to feel sorry for the guy rather than the women in this equation given that untop of that lack of empathy that is inexcusable for the discomfort he caused you can pile on top of that the fact that the man was well equipt to get what he wanted out of someone- just not these 3 women.
I know women sometimes read too deeply between the lines when it's evident a man wrote something so I just want to say that to clarify it's never ok to cross a boundary experience pushback and the SHAME the woman for trying to tell you no. it doesn't matter your stature, but in this context it's especially egregious given that this guy was sexed up fire to plenty of alternatives.
When I was a waitress in my teens and early 20s I was constantly groped. I smiled because I needed tips to live. The sly 'hands-on-hips' move that men use to get past you in bars went on all through my 30s too. The unashamed staring at my tits when I spoke in meetings, reminded me that my body was all that was interesting about me. Funny how it stopped in my 40s. Almost as if just-being-friendly men only touch women they want to shag. Funny how men respect my physical boundaries now because I'm invisible to them.
With all due respect I may be missing something here, he only asked if he could kiss her. This occurred at a wedding reception in a bar in New York City where she had stopped him to they hugged she had a backless dress on so of course his hand is going to touch her bare back, and then he asked very loudly so that everyone could hear if he could kiss her that to me is not sexual misconduct. I truly don’t understand why this is out there being discussed actually it was a very respectful that he asked her. She has never met the governor before and she didn’t even work for him and this happened years and years ago why is this being discussed? She is going to ruin a man’s career cause turmoil in his family a man who has children because he asked to kiss her come on give me a break. I know that this sounds as if I’m against women or something probably but it’s totally the opposite I I fully support women speaking up however let’s not go overboard let’s think about what we’re doing I myself go to a wedding reception and hug and kiss everyone male and female am I gonna lose my job and my reputation and my family over that?
"Anna Ruch, who met Gov. Cuomo at a wedding in 2019, told The New York Times that he put his hand on her bare lower back, called her ‘aggressive’ when she removed it, and then grabbed her face with his hands and asked if he could kiss her."
Ms. Valente, I've never done that. I've never done anything like that. I'm 62 years old. I'm not touchy; I never have been touchy. My father taught me to respect my mother; so I grew up respecting women. Surely I cannot be alone in that.
I have spent the last 10 years being primarily the only woman at leadership tables. It is only in my most recent position (CEO at a nearly all-female nonprofit) that I can truly reflect upon, process and realize how this type of thing is CONSTANTLY present in male-run organizations/companies. I obviously knew that when I was in it, reported it a couple of times as well (always regretting that I did afterwards) but the stark contrast of my experience now compared to then still floors me. The one thing that really resonated with me in this article was the boundaries piece. When I would establish boundaries - from touching me, commenting on my body, telling me my idea isn't a good one and then repackaging it as your idea 15 minutes later, mansplaining - it was ALWAYS met with the reaction described here. I was 'aggressive' or a 'bitch' or 'particular.' Even though you know they are wrong, the gaslighting around this is real and, for me, took being in a different environment to truly realize how much it impacted me.
There have been creepers I've avoided, others I had to deal with along the way. That said, I disagree that it's not that men "don't realize they're making us uncomfortable, they just don't care." It's not callousness, it's callousness-born-of-obliviousness. Even in the face of "aggressive" response, some are so into themselves and their own energy that that's what they're swinging with. They assume anyone who interacts with them is game. They are deaf and blind to serious response. They don't register discomfort or resistance. They don't see or care that it's THEIR GAME. and their territory, and their ball. It's the obliviousness that comes with privilege and power. Then, afterwards, I think some are surprised or shocked that hey, well, not everyone was into that shit after all and well no it was not no-big-deal. But tbh, surrounding females have been complicit in those cultures of power too, from blaming the recipients of shit male behavior to pathologizing survivors to playing the tough-girl "yeah but I can take it-what's-wrong-with-YOU" to preaching love-and-light-style "understanding and peacefulness."
I don't know that "we" can "make men stop touching us" except to help change the culture of entitlement, insularity and solipsism among the powerful, and hold their enablers to account as well. . Not optimistic about politicians, but......
I've been thinking about this and how it affects us differently on just like different days. Ex. I'm fat, so I either get ignored (because misogyny + fatphobia) OR it happens with a little twist of "you should feel grateful for the attention because you don't deserve it because you're fat". Anyone know what I mean? and so I've been thinking about how things like size, race, gender presentation, or just the way we look that day complicate our fear in public, because it feels like it changes the layout of the minefield in front of us on a daily basis. Yesterday the mine was here because of X, but today it's over here because of Y and I have no way to predict the change. Does that make sense?
Like lots of other folks, I feel safer (in this aspect, at least) during the pandemic because men are not touching me. I've had this conversation a lot since last year, and I actually have dread about being back in public with them once we can be.
Ugh. "You’d be hard-pressed to find a woman who hasn’t endured a similar situation." It's only too true. You know, I did a whole illustrated piece about this, and you know what's interesting? It was hard to find it just now with a google search even though it ran in The New Yorker -- it's a series of drawings about men's hands that have assaulted my body: I remember every single time it happened, because it was always such an infuriating violation. There was even a time when for weeks I couldn't stop flinching every time a man walked too close to me, after one grabbed my breast as I passed him on the sidewalk. That one didn't make the cut, but all the other hands in the story were hands of men I knew, men I had to see again and again. I hope you don't mind my posting the link here, it's concise and pertinent: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/this-is-the-hand-a-response-to-recent-news
Midway through this pandemic (let's hope it was midway, because it's going on way too long already), I wrote a piece for the Guardian about how "Covid freed me from politeness and unwanted touching" -- because I was still fuming over one of the last times a guy touched me repeatedly, putting his hands on my shoulders in spite of how I'd wince at him, was just before the shutdown.
Has anyone read "Down Girl: The logic of misogyny, by Kate Manne? There's a great line in it (actually several great lines throughout) about how a man's hatred and hostility could be triggered when he perceived a woman as having committed a "violation of patriarchal norms and expectations" when she, for example, refuses to allow herself to be manhandled with a smile. Besides making terrible tips at the cafe I worked at for five years before the pandemic, I risked that hatred and rage every time I grovel for a patron after being touched or appraised for my physical presence. You can palpably feel that poor woman's fear as she looks at Cuomo with her face in his hands.
I once brought up the young woman I knew who had the courage to tell men that their comments or touches made her uncomfortable. If only we were all safe doing so, but sometimes we're not. We have to constantly measure the danger of speaking up for ourselves. The more we do it, though, the more we can do it. Men will have to get used to it.
Meanwhile, six feet apart from men forever would totally work for me.
It's impossible to be a woman and just live your life in a world where removing a man's hand from your body is seen as "aggressive". I cannot count the number of times I have felt forced to laugh off a spectrum of physical attention to spare myself from retaliation. I remember in my early-to-mid twenties in a dance class there was one creeper I always avoided. One day he disappeared, and I learned he had had the habit of putting his hand in his partner's armpit and sliding it down while asking "where is your waist?" It was just another example of men noticing they’re making women uncomfortable, but not caring.
As a grim addendum to this: I kind of hope the dudes who did this to me over time just didn’t care...but I suspect some of them knew and liked being able to do it anyway.
Never, in my entire life will I ever forget the discomfort, creepiness, wanting-to- literally-withdraw-inside-myself feeling that comes along with a man’s unwanted touch. I’m so glad you wrote about this. I’ve literally pried mens’ hands from my waist in bars only to have them immediately grab hold of me again, finding myself dumbfounded that they didn’t they didn’t seem to understand/care I was trying to get away from them. I only understand now that it was about power and domination, I wish I understood that then. Now I would rip their eyeballs out if they pulled that shit.
I want to ask the Governor why he did this because honestly At the time there were lots of Cuomo Sexuals so if some woman was giving him pushback he should have just dropped it. ALL of us should even if we're not in his position but I feel like it's more difficult to feel sorry for the guy rather than the women in this equation given that untop of that lack of empathy that is inexcusable for the discomfort he caused you can pile on top of that the fact that the man was well equipt to get what he wanted out of someone- just not these 3 women.
I know women sometimes read too deeply between the lines when it's evident a man wrote something so I just want to say that to clarify it's never ok to cross a boundary experience pushback and the SHAME the woman for trying to tell you no. it doesn't matter your stature, but in this context it's especially egregious given that this guy was sexed up fire to plenty of alternatives.
When I was a waitress in my teens and early 20s I was constantly groped. I smiled because I needed tips to live. The sly 'hands-on-hips' move that men use to get past you in bars went on all through my 30s too. The unashamed staring at my tits when I spoke in meetings, reminded me that my body was all that was interesting about me. Funny how it stopped in my 40s. Almost as if just-being-friendly men only touch women they want to shag. Funny how men respect my physical boundaries now because I'm invisible to them.
With all due respect I may be missing something here, he only asked if he could kiss her. This occurred at a wedding reception in a bar in New York City where she had stopped him to they hugged she had a backless dress on so of course his hand is going to touch her bare back, and then he asked very loudly so that everyone could hear if he could kiss her that to me is not sexual misconduct. I truly don’t understand why this is out there being discussed actually it was a very respectful that he asked her. She has never met the governor before and she didn’t even work for him and this happened years and years ago why is this being discussed? She is going to ruin a man’s career cause turmoil in his family a man who has children because he asked to kiss her come on give me a break. I know that this sounds as if I’m against women or something probably but it’s totally the opposite I I fully support women speaking up however let’s not go overboard let’s think about what we’re doing I myself go to a wedding reception and hug and kiss everyone male and female am I gonna lose my job and my reputation and my family over that?
I want to give a particular shout out to women who are wait staff or hostesses who endure being touched and groped as part of their jobs, often do so in silence because their base wage is so low, that if they displease patrons by drawing boundaries they don't get tips and without tips, they can't eat. And that scenario is one of the reasons men believe that women's bodies are public property, cause it's part of the culture, nearly restaurant offers the chance to do this to women without much repercussion, and often women must flirt just to GET enough of a wage to eat because everyone's doing it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/10/27/how-tipping-is-linked-to-sexual-harassment-in-restaurants-readers-stories/ And it's worse now of course: https://www.eater.com/21755485/survey-of-tipped-workers-finds-increase-in-harassment-throught-covid-19-pandemic
And this is all worse
"Anna Ruch, who met Gov. Cuomo at a wedding in 2019, told The New York Times that he put his hand on her bare lower back, called her ‘aggressive’ when she removed it, and then grabbed her face with his hands and asked if he could kiss her."
Ms. Valente, I've never done that. I've never done anything like that. I'm 62 years old. I'm not touchy; I never have been touchy. My father taught me to respect my mother; so I grew up respecting women. Surely I cannot be alone in that.
You are NOT being overly sensitive.
But "men" is a very big generalization.
Please stop including me in your generalization.
I have spent the last 10 years being primarily the only woman at leadership tables. It is only in my most recent position (CEO at a nearly all-female nonprofit) that I can truly reflect upon, process and realize how this type of thing is CONSTANTLY present in male-run organizations/companies. I obviously knew that when I was in it, reported it a couple of times as well (always regretting that I did afterwards) but the stark contrast of my experience now compared to then still floors me. The one thing that really resonated with me in this article was the boundaries piece. When I would establish boundaries - from touching me, commenting on my body, telling me my idea isn't a good one and then repackaging it as your idea 15 minutes later, mansplaining - it was ALWAYS met with the reaction described here. I was 'aggressive' or a 'bitch' or 'particular.' Even though you know they are wrong, the gaslighting around this is real and, for me, took being in a different environment to truly realize how much it impacted me.
There have been creepers I've avoided, others I had to deal with along the way. That said, I disagree that it's not that men "don't realize they're making us uncomfortable, they just don't care." It's not callousness, it's callousness-born-of-obliviousness. Even in the face of "aggressive" response, some are so into themselves and their own energy that that's what they're swinging with. They assume anyone who interacts with them is game. They are deaf and blind to serious response. They don't register discomfort or resistance. They don't see or care that it's THEIR GAME. and their territory, and their ball. It's the obliviousness that comes with privilege and power. Then, afterwards, I think some are surprised or shocked that hey, well, not everyone was into that shit after all and well no it was not no-big-deal. But tbh, surrounding females have been complicit in those cultures of power too, from blaming the recipients of shit male behavior to pathologizing survivors to playing the tough-girl "yeah but I can take it-what's-wrong-with-YOU" to preaching love-and-light-style "understanding and peacefulness."
I don't know that "we" can "make men stop touching us" except to help change the culture of entitlement, insularity and solipsism among the powerful, and hold their enablers to account as well. . Not optimistic about politicians, but......
I've been thinking about this and how it affects us differently on just like different days. Ex. I'm fat, so I either get ignored (because misogyny + fatphobia) OR it happens with a little twist of "you should feel grateful for the attention because you don't deserve it because you're fat". Anyone know what I mean? and so I've been thinking about how things like size, race, gender presentation, or just the way we look that day complicate our fear in public, because it feels like it changes the layout of the minefield in front of us on a daily basis. Yesterday the mine was here because of X, but today it's over here because of Y and I have no way to predict the change. Does that make sense?
Like lots of other folks, I feel safer (in this aspect, at least) during the pandemic because men are not touching me. I've had this conversation a lot since last year, and I actually have dread about being back in public with them once we can be.
How can we make men stop touching us? Grow old, that tends to fix the problem.
Thank you for this.
Ugh. "You’d be hard-pressed to find a woman who hasn’t endured a similar situation." It's only too true. You know, I did a whole illustrated piece about this, and you know what's interesting? It was hard to find it just now with a google search even though it ran in The New Yorker -- it's a series of drawings about men's hands that have assaulted my body: I remember every single time it happened, because it was always such an infuriating violation. There was even a time when for weeks I couldn't stop flinching every time a man walked too close to me, after one grabbed my breast as I passed him on the sidewalk. That one didn't make the cut, but all the other hands in the story were hands of men I knew, men I had to see again and again. I hope you don't mind my posting the link here, it's concise and pertinent: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/this-is-the-hand-a-response-to-recent-news
Midway through this pandemic (let's hope it was midway, because it's going on way too long already), I wrote a piece for the Guardian about how "Covid freed me from politeness and unwanted touching" -- because I was still fuming over one of the last times a guy touched me repeatedly, putting his hands on my shoulders in spite of how I'd wince at him, was just before the shutdown.
Has anyone read "Down Girl: The logic of misogyny, by Kate Manne? There's a great line in it (actually several great lines throughout) about how a man's hatred and hostility could be triggered when he perceived a woman as having committed a "violation of patriarchal norms and expectations" when she, for example, refuses to allow herself to be manhandled with a smile. Besides making terrible tips at the cafe I worked at for five years before the pandemic, I risked that hatred and rage every time I grovel for a patron after being touched or appraised for my physical presence. You can palpably feel that poor woman's fear as she looks at Cuomo with her face in his hands.
I once brought up the young woman I knew who had the courage to tell men that their comments or touches made her uncomfortable. If only we were all safe doing so, but sometimes we're not. We have to constantly measure the danger of speaking up for ourselves. The more we do it, though, the more we can do it. Men will have to get used to it.
Meanwhile, six feet apart from men forever would totally work for me.
It's impossible to be a woman and just live your life in a world where removing a man's hand from your body is seen as "aggressive". I cannot count the number of times I have felt forced to laugh off a spectrum of physical attention to spare myself from retaliation. I remember in my early-to-mid twenties in a dance class there was one creeper I always avoided. One day he disappeared, and I learned he had had the habit of putting his hand in his partner's armpit and sliding it down while asking "where is your waist?" It was just another example of men noticing they’re making women uncomfortable, but not caring.
As a grim addendum to this: I kind of hope the dudes who did this to me over time just didn’t care...but I suspect some of them knew and liked being able to do it anyway.
Never, in my entire life will I ever forget the discomfort, creepiness, wanting-to- literally-withdraw-inside-myself feeling that comes along with a man’s unwanted touch. I’m so glad you wrote about this. I’ve literally pried mens’ hands from my waist in bars only to have them immediately grab hold of me again, finding myself dumbfounded that they didn’t they didn’t seem to understand/care I was trying to get away from them. I only understand now that it was about power and domination, I wish I understood that then. Now I would rip their eyeballs out if they pulled that shit.
A thousand times this!!! When men touch my lower back it's like my spine wants to crawl out of my body. And they think absolutely nothing of it!