And one more thing: Whatever he has to say about abortion, Donald Trump has already told us he wants to rip up the Constitution (or suspend it) so anything he has to say after that isn’t worth hearing.
There is one party defending democracy: Democrats.
I want more than Roe. Even before the Dobbs decision, there was a “no unburden” standard (found in Casey, I believe) and seemed to be just words on paper. Republicans ignored it and passed restrictive laws anyway. Sure lawsuits were filed, and won, but the harm was done -- a lot of clinics were closed while the lawsuits dragged on.
Every time I hear someone say they are pro-life and want to protect the unborn -- a noble sounding cause! -- I recognize them for what they are willing to do: Let women suffer, risk permanent disability, and die.
It’s horrid when I hear the lawmakers say they want to ban abortion to keep women safe -- Texas lawmakers did this during Wendy Davis’s filibuster -- it is callous and disrespectful to women.
We all hear the stories of women being imperiled because what they needed was medical intervention to safely end their pregnancy, an abortion, and that medical care was delayed or denied because the law threatened to criminalize the medical providers for saving their lives. If we ever thought their intent was honorable, they have clearly shown their true colors by refusing to fix the mess they have created.
Please vote for candidates who fully support women’s reproductive health care choices and guaranteed access to abortions.
The Democrat party is run by Catholics like Biden who are just as opposed to abortion as the evangelicals in the Republican party, maybe more, since Catholics are also opposed to birth control. Evangelicals are not opposed to birth control. Many of us in the blue states know that the Republicans who threaten abortion rights are not much worse than Democrats who claim to defend it.
What the Catholics and the evangelicals have in common is the believe in the personhood of a woman's pregnancy, the woman herself being subservient to that "person" in her uterus. To completely disarm the anti-abortionists, Democrats and Republicans, this needs to be debunked. A gestating pregnancy is not qualified to be a person as a moral, medical or legal matter. The woman and her life is the only thing that matters, her will regarding whether or not she should get pregnant or remain pregnant are the only things that matter.
I’m tired of everyone dancing around Trump. I hate that he makes us all feel the need to stretch the bounds of ethics just so he fits in. Or I should say just because he won’t go away. Fuck him. That should be the ad. Trump? Fuck him.
Prepare to be disappointed. One reason Trump is a successful politician (and I think that's an accurate statement; it says nothing about to what foul ends his political success has been. The guy came in, took over a political party representing roughly half of America, got elected president, and now everyone in that party is loyal to him above all else, whether because of admiration or fear) is he has that ability to get people to think he's whatever they want him to be. If they want to think he's pro-choice, they can. If they want to think he's the one their god sent to establish his kingdom on earth 🙄, well, they can think that too. By all means use everything you have on him against him, but then no one really believes he ever means anything he says anyway.
The pertinent question is what people think is going to happen if he's president again. And that's the case on everything: the economy, foreign affairs, immigration, etc. If they can imagine an outcome they like, they're going to be willing to vote for him. They have to be convinced that they're not going to get an outcome they like. I'm not sure his supposed position on any issues is relevant.
I think you have to nail the whole party if you want to demonstrate what's going to happen. That or you make it about Trump's personality traits. Policy positions don't really work on him.
And I don't think Biden is capable of rising to the occasion, not on abortion anyway. There's a good case to be made to dump him and start over with someone else, but we'll have to see if that gets any traction. Otherwise we're going to need a good bit of luck, and self-inflicted wounds by Republicans, to survive this election. I could spin you a sunnier tale but I don't think that does anyone any favors.
Also. It’s amazing that because he bullshits he’s seen as MORE trustworthy. I think it’s because people fill in the blanks with what they want him to be.
I swear... I got into an argument yesterday because I was so proud that the media finally said he was being authoritarian and compared him to Hitler. And a family member was like: “the media is lazy and Trump isn’t ideological like that. He’s just saying what his base wants to hear.” 🤬🤬🤬 in my head I was like... are you f’in defending him? Do you think he wouldn’t let his people do this? Have you forgotten what manslaughter is? 👏 You don’t have to be intentional to be dangerous.
The problem with comparing him to Hitler is it does fall flat with some of the ideology; Mussolini might be a better comparison. And people often don't understand just what fascism is. But even so, the point is also that it's not really about Trump; it's about the whole movement. It's about the rest of these fuckers, the ones we read about here every day. THEY are the problem. Trump turns out a lot of voters against him so that's a big part of any Democratic campaign, but it's necessary, not sufficient. When the rest of them get let off the hook for not being Trump, and their evil gets overlooked, that's when we lose. Sometimes I think Trump is the world's biggest distraction, and he takes everyone's eyes off the fucking ball.
Well, for it to work he would have to decide to withdraw his candidacy, or to decline the nomination at the convention. Have to be careful with primaries yielding someone too far to the left to win the general (i.e. Bernie Sanders and his acolytes). If he stays in and loses, his legacy is being the last president under the current democratic system. Hopefully he's smart enough to figure that out and courageous enough to do the right thing should the country need it.
Agree with your comment. He has been tremendously successful for a certain type of Rs and why would they abandon him? One might say they should think about the country that it will become under him again. They don't care. They think they are the protected class. For those Rs that are on the fence and do understand what is at stake and that they don't want their country to become a Russia or China or worse, we have to get them out of there by going after the party and how the party because they didn't self-police (like Maddow would say) has brought on this catastrophe on the country -- country before party. I said something to that effect in another thread. Hold the R party responsible and make it toxic.
“Trump nominated conservative judges, leading to Roe v. Wade being overturned and returned to the states.”
The interesting catch about "return to the states," implying a return to the PEOPLE, is that those "people" are actually gerrymandered republican legislators creating dystopian laws against the rights of women under the color of representation.
exactly. It's his fault that abortion is banned in several states. He had no idea the women in several states would fight for this right once they got the chance. He is such a douche.
I feel that we might have always seen abortion as rights, choice, and freedom and fundamentally that is what it is. But recent episodes about health related trauma due to timely abortion not being available gives us a new angle to argue that it is part of women's essential healthcare. It is an integral part of women's healthcare, period -- for instance, if some religious lunatic says appendix is a sacred body part and not to be removed, would we let people die of appendicitis?
Yes we would allow them to die. By Not counting the spectrum of anti Vax imbeciles, there is a chunk that doesn't believe in science or modern medicine. Extremely high fever- divine will. Spots too? Biblical. Wait for God's wish. Occasionally we will get a story about a hospital saying that X treatment is needed and is refused on religious grounds. Who knows how many die or are crippled because God Cures, not doctors???
This part right here, I can almost hear TFG’s voice saying it!
“Trump loves nothing more than taking credit for wins—any wins. I can very easily imagine him at a campaign rally or in a Fox News interview, saying that the only reason Ohio voters were able to get abortion in their state constitution was because of him. He gave the decision back to the states! Wasn’t that generous?!”
Holding Biden to his better angels is going to be the motif of the next year. It will be agonizing, and not only about women's healthcare. We will have to walk a tightrope. I believe the Democratic coalition can do it -- but just barely. Sigh.
We need to be clear about actions and outcomes, not internal mind games or intentions. Did he cause Roe v Wade to fall? Yes. Roll clip of him bragging. Would he sign a ban? Yes. Roll clip of him talking about women needing to be punished.
It shouldn’t matter how intentionally he causes harm.
Yes. There is no right way to do the wrong thing, wrong is wrong. Biden and Democrats are on the right side and should proceed with confidence that they are doing the right thing.
It would help if Biden would actually use the word abortion. We need to all be less afraid of saying it. Trump's wife can pose in some playboy like ad, but we cannot talk about women taking action for something that tis the result of sex.
I am frightened for the future. I am certain we will win, provided the 3 rd party assholes don’t shave too many votes from Biden. How would a federal ban work? Why would they do that, knowing how opposed the majorities are to abortion Bans? If they try that shit, women need to come together and just stop. stop cooking and cleaning, stop fucking our husbands and boyfriends. We will still care for our children, they didn’t vote to end our autonomy, but everyone else will get nothing from me in particular until our rights are restored. I wish I could temporarily quit my job, if millions of women just upped and walked out of their jobs over abortion access, that would definitely get their attention.
We need to do something big, the idea of federal abortion ban fills me with dread. What next, are they going to make it so I can’t secure a mortgage w/o a man? I am unmarried, (35) and I plan to stay that way for the rest of my life. How fast are we moving towards the handmaiden tale? I am being initiated into the pipefitters union in February. Once I am in, it will take an act of congress to kick me out, (or an unplanned pregnancy in my probationary period would probably do it) 🙄
Best thing you can do is help win the election. Then the scenario you fear will not materialize. I am personally making this my top priority until next November.
All Biden has to do is to play video of trump saying he killed Roe, play it non-stop. It is ridiculous that they can't get around to what he did to negate whatever moderate lies on the issue he will spread. I am afraid Democrats will settle for a 15 week ban with exceptions because they are wimps. We want Roe back, nothing less.
I don’t want any bans at any point in gestation, and I don’t want Catholic hospitals to be allowed to deny life-saving care to women suffering from ectopic pregnancies or miscarriages. It’s barbaric to withhold care! And since Catholic hospitals are buying up hospitals all over the country, this is a burgeoning problem.
The life-saving thing is covered by the "The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act is a Federal law enacted by Congress in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) of 1985 (42 U.S.C. §1395dd). Referred to as the “anti-dumping” law, it was designed to prevent hospitals from refusing to treat patients or transferring them to charity or public hospitals because they were unable to pay or had Medicaid coverage. EMTALA requires hospitals with emergency departments to provide emergency medical care to everyone who needs it, regardless of ability to pay or insurance status. Under the law, patients with similar medical conditions must be treated consistently. The law applies to hospitals that accept Medicare reimbursement, and to all their patients, not just those covered by Medicare.
Hospitals have three basic obligations under EMTALA
First, they must provide all patients with a medical screening examination to determine whether an emergency medical condition exists without regard for ability to pay for services.
Second, where an emergency medical condition exists, they must either provide treatment until the patient is stabilized, or if they do not have the capability, transfer the patient to another hospital.
Third, hospitals with specialized capabilities are obligated to accept transfers if they have the capabilities to treat them. Medical care cannot be delayed by questions about methods of payment or insurance coverage.
I guess I should have sued the Catholic hospital that turned me away in the 90s when my second pregnancy was ectopic. All I was told was that a Catholic hospital wouldn’t treat me. Does this apply to Catholic hospitals? I thought the reason Senators Murkowski and Collins voted against the last attempt to codify Roe was because it would have forced Catholic hospitals to treat miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies.
Yes, in a sane world you would be able to sue the MF'ers that didn't care if you died. I an sorry that happened to you.
Biden has been pushing a case where the law covers this sort of thing, but I don't know the status of it. And Collin's excuse wouldn't fly in real life, no one can make a doctor do a surgery he, or she isn't qualified for, and any surgeon that doesn't want to do them, shouldn't be on-call. Oh, I missed the qualifier: "Catholic Hospitals" they should be illegal, or made to follow best medical practice. The regular hospitals know who's a jerk and would object, they would not have one on call because they would get sued.
I really appreciate your explanation. For so many years I’ve tried to understand what the hell happened, then tried to just forget and move on, but the Dobbs decision brought back all the questions. I just don’t want anyone else to be treated (or rather, untreated) this way going forward. Thanks again.
And one more thing: Whatever he has to say about abortion, Donald Trump has already told us he wants to rip up the Constitution (or suspend it) so anything he has to say after that isn’t worth hearing.
There is one party defending democracy: Democrats.
I want more than Roe. Even before the Dobbs decision, there was a “no unburden” standard (found in Casey, I believe) and seemed to be just words on paper. Republicans ignored it and passed restrictive laws anyway. Sure lawsuits were filed, and won, but the harm was done -- a lot of clinics were closed while the lawsuits dragged on.
Every time I hear someone say they are pro-life and want to protect the unborn -- a noble sounding cause! -- I recognize them for what they are willing to do: Let women suffer, risk permanent disability, and die.
It’s horrid when I hear the lawmakers say they want to ban abortion to keep women safe -- Texas lawmakers did this during Wendy Davis’s filibuster -- it is callous and disrespectful to women.
We all hear the stories of women being imperiled because what they needed was medical intervention to safely end their pregnancy, an abortion, and that medical care was delayed or denied because the law threatened to criminalize the medical providers for saving their lives. If we ever thought their intent was honorable, they have clearly shown their true colors by refusing to fix the mess they have created.
Please vote for candidates who fully support women’s reproductive health care choices and guaranteed access to abortions.
correction: I meant to say “‘no undue burden’ standard”. Writing too fast without proofing. Sorry.
The Democrat party is run by Catholics like Biden who are just as opposed to abortion as the evangelicals in the Republican party, maybe more, since Catholics are also opposed to birth control. Evangelicals are not opposed to birth control. Many of us in the blue states know that the Republicans who threaten abortion rights are not much worse than Democrats who claim to defend it.
What the Catholics and the evangelicals have in common is the believe in the personhood of a woman's pregnancy, the woman herself being subservient to that "person" in her uterus. To completely disarm the anti-abortionists, Democrats and Republicans, this needs to be debunked. A gestating pregnancy is not qualified to be a person as a moral, medical or legal matter. The woman and her life is the only thing that matters, her will regarding whether or not she should get pregnant or remain pregnant are the only things that matter.
Biden may be afraid of losing latino vote too, if he comes too strong on this issue.
Well said. Fractals rule. Yea Mandelbrot.
The MSM is part and parcel, of the patriarchy, they want their "horse race" the public be damned.
I’m tired of everyone dancing around Trump. I hate that he makes us all feel the need to stretch the bounds of ethics just so he fits in. Or I should say just because he won’t go away. Fuck him. That should be the ad. Trump? Fuck him.
Some pundit made the comment we will be stuck with him, "Unless he 'chokes on a cheeseburger.' I'm rooting for that cheeseburger.
Go cheeseburger go🦴
Team Cheeseburger all the way!
Since this started I have been craving a Swiss mushroom 🍄 cheeseburger 🍔. Ohh, and a side of Mac and cheese or potato salad 🥗 😋 😅 🙃 😐
Mushroom... I see what you did there. Stormy Daniels would approve!
Prepare to be disappointed. One reason Trump is a successful politician (and I think that's an accurate statement; it says nothing about to what foul ends his political success has been. The guy came in, took over a political party representing roughly half of America, got elected president, and now everyone in that party is loyal to him above all else, whether because of admiration or fear) is he has that ability to get people to think he's whatever they want him to be. If they want to think he's pro-choice, they can. If they want to think he's the one their god sent to establish his kingdom on earth 🙄, well, they can think that too. By all means use everything you have on him against him, but then no one really believes he ever means anything he says anyway.
The pertinent question is what people think is going to happen if he's president again. And that's the case on everything: the economy, foreign affairs, immigration, etc. If they can imagine an outcome they like, they're going to be willing to vote for him. They have to be convinced that they're not going to get an outcome they like. I'm not sure his supposed position on any issues is relevant.
I think you have to nail the whole party if you want to demonstrate what's going to happen. That or you make it about Trump's personality traits. Policy positions don't really work on him.
And I don't think Biden is capable of rising to the occasion, not on abortion anyway. There's a good case to be made to dump him and start over with someone else, but we'll have to see if that gets any traction. Otherwise we're going to need a good bit of luck, and self-inflicted wounds by Republicans, to survive this election. I could spin you a sunnier tale but I don't think that does anyone any favors.
Also. It’s amazing that because he bullshits he’s seen as MORE trustworthy. I think it’s because people fill in the blanks with what they want him to be.
I swear... I got into an argument yesterday because I was so proud that the media finally said he was being authoritarian and compared him to Hitler. And a family member was like: “the media is lazy and Trump isn’t ideological like that. He’s just saying what his base wants to hear.” 🤬🤬🤬 in my head I was like... are you f’in defending him? Do you think he wouldn’t let his people do this? Have you forgotten what manslaughter is? 👏 You don’t have to be intentional to be dangerous.
The problem with comparing him to Hitler is it does fall flat with some of the ideology; Mussolini might be a better comparison. And people often don't understand just what fascism is. But even so, the point is also that it's not really about Trump; it's about the whole movement. It's about the rest of these fuckers, the ones we read about here every day. THEY are the problem. Trump turns out a lot of voters against him so that's a big part of any Democratic campaign, but it's necessary, not sufficient. When the rest of them get let off the hook for not being Trump, and their evil gets overlooked, that's when we lose. Sometimes I think Trump is the world's biggest distraction, and he takes everyone's eyes off the fucking ball.
They also said Mussolini. Here’s the PBS News Hour clip I was referencing https://youtu.be/agAHZF3uPdE
My understanding is because of state ballot access it’s too late to dump Biden.
Well, for it to work he would have to decide to withdraw his candidacy, or to decline the nomination at the convention. Have to be careful with primaries yielding someone too far to the left to win the general (i.e. Bernie Sanders and his acolytes). If he stays in and loses, his legacy is being the last president under the current democratic system. Hopefully he's smart enough to figure that out and courageous enough to do the right thing should the country need it.
Agree with your comment. He has been tremendously successful for a certain type of Rs and why would they abandon him? One might say they should think about the country that it will become under him again. They don't care. They think they are the protected class. For those Rs that are on the fence and do understand what is at stake and that they don't want their country to become a Russia or China or worse, we have to get them out of there by going after the party and how the party because they didn't self-police (like Maddow would say) has brought on this catastrophe on the country -- country before party. I said something to that effect in another thread. Hold the R party responsible and make it toxic.
Scary with these types of voters!
https://twitter.com/DanRosenheck/status/1725239279691972692
“Trump nominated conservative judges, leading to Roe v. Wade being overturned and returned to the states.”
The interesting catch about "return to the states," implying a return to the PEOPLE, is that those "people" are actually gerrymandered republican legislators creating dystopian laws against the rights of women under the color of representation.
exactly. It's his fault that abortion is banned in several states. He had no idea the women in several states would fight for this right once they got the chance. He is such a douche.
Besides just abortion, Trump will go after those groups and individuals that opposed him in 2020. He's very dangerous to us all.
I feel that we might have always seen abortion as rights, choice, and freedom and fundamentally that is what it is. But recent episodes about health related trauma due to timely abortion not being available gives us a new angle to argue that it is part of women's essential healthcare. It is an integral part of women's healthcare, period -- for instance, if some religious lunatic says appendix is a sacred body part and not to be removed, would we let people die of appendicitis?
Yes we would allow them to die. By Not counting the spectrum of anti Vax imbeciles, there is a chunk that doesn't believe in science or modern medicine. Extremely high fever- divine will. Spots too? Biblical. Wait for God's wish. Occasionally we will get a story about a hospital saying that X treatment is needed and is refused on religious grounds. Who knows how many die or are crippled because God Cures, not doctors???
And what do we do about these people?
https://twitter.com/jackhealyNYT/status/1725252271762796759
Idiots
You have a point! I think it is the same chunk that is backing the Rs on abortion bans. If it is not ignorance, cruelty is the point for some.
it is both, the cruelty turns them on.
Cruelty is the point. Stupidity is just a factor.
I miss when all I knew about this stuff was that a period was what you found at the end of a sentence.
LOL, I am glad you have joined the resistance! We need more men on our side.
When I was in my early teens I joined the SDS.
This part right here, I can almost hear TFG’s voice saying it!
“Trump loves nothing more than taking credit for wins—any wins. I can very easily imagine him at a campaign rally or in a Fox News interview, saying that the only reason Ohio voters were able to get abortion in their state constitution was because of him. He gave the decision back to the states! Wasn’t that generous?!”
Holding Biden to his better angels is going to be the motif of the next year. It will be agonizing, and not only about women's healthcare. We will have to walk a tightrope. I believe the Democratic coalition can do it -- but just barely. Sigh.
We need to be clear about actions and outcomes, not internal mind games or intentions. Did he cause Roe v Wade to fall? Yes. Roll clip of him bragging. Would he sign a ban? Yes. Roll clip of him talking about women needing to be punished.
It shouldn’t matter how intentionally he causes harm.
Yes. There is no right way to do the wrong thing, wrong is wrong. Biden and Democrats are on the right side and should proceed with confidence that they are doing the right thing.
It would help if Biden would actually use the word abortion. We need to all be less afraid of saying it. Trump's wife can pose in some playboy like ad, but we cannot talk about women taking action for something that tis the result of sex.
I am frightened for the future. I am certain we will win, provided the 3 rd party assholes don’t shave too many votes from Biden. How would a federal ban work? Why would they do that, knowing how opposed the majorities are to abortion Bans? If they try that shit, women need to come together and just stop. stop cooking and cleaning, stop fucking our husbands and boyfriends. We will still care for our children, they didn’t vote to end our autonomy, but everyone else will get nothing from me in particular until our rights are restored. I wish I could temporarily quit my job, if millions of women just upped and walked out of their jobs over abortion access, that would definitely get their attention.
We need to do something big, the idea of federal abortion ban fills me with dread. What next, are they going to make it so I can’t secure a mortgage w/o a man? I am unmarried, (35) and I plan to stay that way for the rest of my life. How fast are we moving towards the handmaiden tale? I am being initiated into the pipefitters union in February. Once I am in, it will take an act of congress to kick me out, (or an unplanned pregnancy in my probationary period would probably do it) 🙄
Best thing you can do is help win the election. Then the scenario you fear will not materialize. I am personally making this my top priority until next November.
🎯👍
All Biden has to do is to play video of trump saying he killed Roe, play it non-stop. It is ridiculous that they can't get around to what he did to negate whatever moderate lies on the issue he will spread. I am afraid Democrats will settle for a 15 week ban with exceptions because they are wimps. We want Roe back, nothing less.
Gosh, Padma, I want more than Roe.
I don’t want any bans at any point in gestation, and I don’t want Catholic hospitals to be allowed to deny life-saving care to women suffering from ectopic pregnancies or miscarriages. It’s barbaric to withhold care! And since Catholic hospitals are buying up hospitals all over the country, this is a burgeoning problem.
Well said, and seconded!
I want more than Roe too.
For all the pain and suffering caused by Dobbs, we deserve everything.
Agree. See my other comment about abortion is healthcare. (doesn't Roe prevent these mfers from denying life-saving care?)
The life-saving thing is covered by the "The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act is a Federal law enacted by Congress in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) of 1985 (42 U.S.C. §1395dd). Referred to as the “anti-dumping” law, it was designed to prevent hospitals from refusing to treat patients or transferring them to charity or public hospitals because they were unable to pay or had Medicaid coverage. EMTALA requires hospitals with emergency departments to provide emergency medical care to everyone who needs it, regardless of ability to pay or insurance status. Under the law, patients with similar medical conditions must be treated consistently. The law applies to hospitals that accept Medicare reimbursement, and to all their patients, not just those covered by Medicare.
Hospitals have three basic obligations under EMTALA
First, they must provide all patients with a medical screening examination to determine whether an emergency medical condition exists without regard for ability to pay for services.
Second, where an emergency medical condition exists, they must either provide treatment until the patient is stabilized, or if they do not have the capability, transfer the patient to another hospital.
Third, hospitals with specialized capabilities are obligated to accept transfers if they have the capabilities to treat them. Medical care cannot be delayed by questions about methods of payment or insurance coverage.
https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/ems/interfacility/pages/AppD.htm
I guess I should have sued the Catholic hospital that turned me away in the 90s when my second pregnancy was ectopic. All I was told was that a Catholic hospital wouldn’t treat me. Does this apply to Catholic hospitals? I thought the reason Senators Murkowski and Collins voted against the last attempt to codify Roe was because it would have forced Catholic hospitals to treat miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies.
Yes, in a sane world you would be able to sue the MF'ers that didn't care if you died. I an sorry that happened to you.
Biden has been pushing a case where the law covers this sort of thing, but I don't know the status of it. And Collin's excuse wouldn't fly in real life, no one can make a doctor do a surgery he, or she isn't qualified for, and any surgeon that doesn't want to do them, shouldn't be on-call. Oh, I missed the qualifier: "Catholic Hospitals" they should be illegal, or made to follow best medical practice. The regular hospitals know who's a jerk and would object, they would not have one on call because they would get sued.
I really appreciate your explanation. For so many years I’ve tried to understand what the hell happened, then tried to just forget and move on, but the Dobbs decision brought back all the questions. I just don’t want anyone else to be treated (or rather, untreated) this way going forward. Thanks again.
Exactly!
Yaaaaas enthusiastically!