Can a man be prescribed mifepristone? Perhaps a man could donate the medication to a person in need when the inevitable arrives. Forgive if it is a silly question. I find myself desperately brainstorming in this moment.
All abortions must be elective abortions. When we say "elective" we are making a legal argument, not a medical one. The whole point of a fundamental right to an abortion is to protect women from the fantasy that her pregnancy is a person deserving protection as a person. If a woman needs an abortion to protect her health, the law should not be standing by to make the decision to have it done, it must be elective. The law should not be "protecting" her pregnancy as if it were a threatened infant or child.
This reminds me of arguments about IUDs, that somehow it is a threat to reproductive rights to argue that they induce an abortion. And we labor the term abortion when you want to call denying a blastocyst ambient nutrients an abortion.
Abortion is birth control. The best kind of abortive birth control aborts gestation long before is becomes an embryo. Contraception is even better. Why labor a woman's reproductive cycle unnecessarily?
All abortions must be elective, else the law is always standing by and the concerns of the law can never match the concerns of health and medicine.
So many folks bought into Trump’s lie about “giving it back to the states” and voted for state amendments protecting abortion rights but then voted for Trump. Sadly, I think this is why so many women voted for Trump. Before the election, I read an interview with a white woman from AZ who was planning to do exactly this. Sadly, no one - the media, Harris, all Dems running for senate & the house - explained the idea that a national ban would override state protections. Comstock wasn’t mentioned very much either.
Thinking about all this—and maybe you’ve already mentioned it, Jessica,—I’m realizing that they’ve also taken away our right to NOT choose abortion. It’s already a given, that every pregnant woman should—and will—give birth, no matter if it kills her. And they will delight in her suffering, as if they’ve felt that level of suffering (not even close). Perhaps they’re seeking a vicarious experience of suffering, in order to become closer to their idea of god and religious ‘suffering’?
Majority white voters let their country down. I look around and see that every minority group (yes, majority Latinos voted for Harris in revised numbers) understood the assignment. I guess you all have a lot of work to do on your friends and relatives who voted for trump. You have to do the work of deprogramming them because nobody else will.
Going forward, I would suggest people look at how Poland wrested control back from a dictator, including reversing the restriction on women's repro freedom. Also, look at Hungary to learn what they did wrong. Because trump and his bastards are going for the Orban model first.
I have a theory that dumb people in this country are dumber than the ones elsewhere in the world and smart people here are smarter than the ones elsewhere in the world just because the people here have more resources and opportunities. The word going around is "Kakistocracy" meaning government by the least suitable or competent citizens of a state. To that I will add, the government voted in by the least suitable or competent voters. The danger is that these people resort to violence since their ideas have no intellectual merit, maybe a version of brawn over brain.
I don't know that dumb people are any dumber here. There are plenty of elected administrations in other countries that are bad. However, most of those countries have long histories of social democrats being in power, and don't have the 40+ years of post-Regan right wing machine we have here. We also have unique religious BS, and the whole right-wing media ecosystem that is really robust.
The religious BS is not unique to here either. What is that saying 'religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel?' It happened in the 70s when Zia ul Haq of Pakistan figured out religion is a way to keep the rubes divided. Afghanistan was a modern country in the 50s until outsiders mucked it up and criminal elements inside took over and use religion to rule with fear. Turkey's Erdogan is using religion. India's Modi is doing the same -- maybe Gandhi should have just made India a Hindu country instead of a secular democracy; maybe church and state separation in the constitution is too much for the MAGA to understand. Sometimes lofty principles and ideals do not reach the 'dumb' people being manipulated by grifters/fraudsters/criminals.
Fair. I'll admit to really only thinking of Europe when I responded. Something "feels" uniquely awful about American fundamentalism, but that might just be vibes instead of me knowing anything... Sort of to your point.
American fundamentalism maybe more virulent because these people are rich (unlike the poor and ignorant who are cultivated in other parts). I am no expert and like all of you I am just trying to make sense of what is happening. It is a gut punch because we emigrated from India in our 20s tired of Indian corrupt politics/government. Here we are 30+ years later with all that we liked and admired in danger of extinction.
I guess I have to offer a clarification, by dumb I don't mean dictionary definition, I mean rich/poor people who don't use all their faculties to figure out what is in their self interest or in the interest of the society at large, right from wrong... Sure there are plenty of elections that go bad in other countries but they are also not the richest country with resources.
Agree with your point about post Reagan RW machine but the Republicans before trump were using their extreme views to gut policies within the norms of elections and peaceful transfer of power but now trump/SCOTUS have shattered that carefully managed agenda. And, it looks like trump is operating on behalf of America's adversaries to destroy the modern administrative state and usher in dictatorship. I don't think the Reagan RW machine signed up for that.
Re buying abortion medicine in advance, one issue is how long its shelf life is. Shelf life is tricky. I am wondering whether anyone has done studies specifically oriented to this medicine. Also helpful would be storage recommendations to extend the shelf life (e.g. keeping it from excessive heat). How necessary and effective is that, and what is the best environment for long-term storage? Ideally one could buy some of this medicine and store it for several years, and it will still be safe and effective, but specific guidelines would be helpful.
The problem is that there is not a lot of study about this topic but the defense department has done studies that medications (primarily antibiotics) last much longer than there expiration dates. Agree with Lesley, control moisture with a desiccant and a tight seal (or best vacuum pack) and refrigerate. No matter what the prochoice movement must stockpile abortion medication like MAGA stockpiles guns.
I saw a discussion on Wapo’s comment site that seemed useful. Sealing the pills in a vacuum pack and putting the pack in a tightly closed glass jar that will be kept in a fridge, was suggested. Apparently, light and oxygen are the enemies and these two things will help keep the medicine usable. I’m not a scientist, so I’ll need to ask around to see if this is a good idea.
I knew it was going to happen, but I’m still gobsmacked by the people who voted for the ballot measures to protect abortion then completely canceled out those votes by voting for MAGA.
<“underestimating their capacity to face suffering.” > This tells you everything about these people. They make a fetish of other people’s suffering, especially the suffering of women. While progressives define “strong women” by what we can achieve, conservatives define “strong women” by what they can endure.
My interpretation is that they think they get the 'benefits' of patriarchy via the men they're connected to, and they're choosing that over their own freedom. I suppose it's common to choose (a false sense of) security over freedom.
This comment “robbing our patients of an opportunity for courage, or underestimating their capacity to face suffering.” is very J Marion Sims. Isn't the whole point of healthcare to reduce suffering?
I don’t understand how they are robbing people of an opportunity if they have a choice. The choice is allowed. What they are doing is taking away any option. It’s like saying I won’t give you a choice of eating shrimp or tofu when I know you are allergic to shrimp because I don’t want you to be deprived of the experience of eating shrimp. I’m willing to force you to eat the thing that will kill you.
I don’t understand their reasoning. The definition of an abortion is simply the ending of a pregnancy before viability. If they perform a c-section before viability then it’s still an abortion. If they want to claim otherwise then they would have to say that causing the uterus to shed the fetus, regardless of viability, is simply pre-mature birth and therefore taking mifepristone and misoprostol is simply an expedited birth. If we are playing with definitions then we can claim this. Consider the fact that they don’t recognize the work a woman does to build the fetus. They consider that fetus a baby with a life of its own. Okay. So expedited birth should therefore be fine. She can deliver the fetus, regardless of the stage of development, and hand it over to the state since the state seems to have a vested interest in that fetus. After all, how hard can it be if a little girl can do it?
Your logic is always so clear, and it's so frustrating that logic doesn't seem to matter one iota in today's world. Idk what it will take for that to change.
Thank you. When I was a high school science teacher, I would spend weeks on the scientific method and experimental design to teach reasoning skills. My students had never had such training and they took to it very well. I was roundly condemned for taking so much time because it wasn’t in the state mandated list of objectives. You would think it would be, but there’s a reason the powerful don’t want people to be able to reason. It makes them harder to manipulate.
Bruchalski is a sadist. Of course, he's a devout Catholic who buys into a patriarchal, misogynistic institution that was founded by and for ththe supremacy of men. Blathering about the nobility of suffering is disgusting, but par for thecourse for a religious institution built to persuade adherents that suffering in the real world will guarantee them blessings in a mythical afterlife.
I've wondered all along whether those ballot initiatives were undermining our larger battle. It's not surprising that folks voted for them and MAGA too. So many MAGA voters don't think Trump will do half the things he threatens to do.
I had a convo with a MAGA guy today who incredulously told me that I was "lying" when I said Trump overturned Roe. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The guy said "the judges did it. Not Trump." I had to explain that he appointed them and they lied under oath and were picked just for that reason -- to overturn Roe. Then I had to find him articles with Trump bragging.
Understood totally and agree. But if the result is electing republicans along with them, what good does it do in the end? The republicans are going to work to undo the freedoms that were fought to attain in the ballot initiatives.
Because at least SOME of the Republicans in these states do not support these drastic bans.
Here in Kansas, after the 2022 vote on keeping abortion legal, we've had one House member introduce 3 different bills to ban abortion. They either didn't make it out of committee or were voted down in the House. She has vowed to continue to try and pass bills. We'll see.
Can a man be prescribed mifepristone? Perhaps a man could donate the medication to a person in need when the inevitable arrives. Forgive if it is a silly question. I find myself desperately brainstorming in this moment.
Once again, I ask, "Who cares?"
All abortions must be elective abortions. When we say "elective" we are making a legal argument, not a medical one. The whole point of a fundamental right to an abortion is to protect women from the fantasy that her pregnancy is a person deserving protection as a person. If a woman needs an abortion to protect her health, the law should not be standing by to make the decision to have it done, it must be elective. The law should not be "protecting" her pregnancy as if it were a threatened infant or child.
This reminds me of arguments about IUDs, that somehow it is a threat to reproductive rights to argue that they induce an abortion. And we labor the term abortion when you want to call denying a blastocyst ambient nutrients an abortion.
Abortion is birth control. The best kind of abortive birth control aborts gestation long before is becomes an embryo. Contraception is even better. Why labor a woman's reproductive cycle unnecessarily?
All abortions must be elective, else the law is always standing by and the concerns of the law can never match the concerns of health and medicine.
So many folks bought into Trump’s lie about “giving it back to the states” and voted for state amendments protecting abortion rights but then voted for Trump. Sadly, I think this is why so many women voted for Trump. Before the election, I read an interview with a white woman from AZ who was planning to do exactly this. Sadly, no one - the media, Harris, all Dems running for senate & the house - explained the idea that a national ban would override state protections. Comstock wasn’t mentioned very much either.
Thinking about all this—and maybe you’ve already mentioned it, Jessica,—I’m realizing that they’ve also taken away our right to NOT choose abortion. It’s already a given, that every pregnant woman should—and will—give birth, no matter if it kills her. And they will delight in her suffering, as if they’ve felt that level of suffering (not even close). Perhaps they’re seeking a vicarious experience of suffering, in order to become closer to their idea of god and religious ‘suffering’?
Majority white voters let their country down. I look around and see that every minority group (yes, majority Latinos voted for Harris in revised numbers) understood the assignment. I guess you all have a lot of work to do on your friends and relatives who voted for trump. You have to do the work of deprogramming them because nobody else will.
Going forward, I would suggest people look at how Poland wrested control back from a dictator, including reversing the restriction on women's repro freedom. Also, look at Hungary to learn what they did wrong. Because trump and his bastards are going for the Orban model first.
I have a theory that dumb people in this country are dumber than the ones elsewhere in the world and smart people here are smarter than the ones elsewhere in the world just because the people here have more resources and opportunities. The word going around is "Kakistocracy" meaning government by the least suitable or competent citizens of a state. To that I will add, the government voted in by the least suitable or competent voters. The danger is that these people resort to violence since their ideas have no intellectual merit, maybe a version of brawn over brain.
Interesting theory of American exceptionalism. I do think violence is the ultimate end game because there's no other way to get the control they want.
I don't know that dumb people are any dumber here. There are plenty of elected administrations in other countries that are bad. However, most of those countries have long histories of social democrats being in power, and don't have the 40+ years of post-Regan right wing machine we have here. We also have unique religious BS, and the whole right-wing media ecosystem that is really robust.
The religious BS is not unique to here either. What is that saying 'religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel?' It happened in the 70s when Zia ul Haq of Pakistan figured out religion is a way to keep the rubes divided. Afghanistan was a modern country in the 50s until outsiders mucked it up and criminal elements inside took over and use religion to rule with fear. Turkey's Erdogan is using religion. India's Modi is doing the same -- maybe Gandhi should have just made India a Hindu country instead of a secular democracy; maybe church and state separation in the constitution is too much for the MAGA to understand. Sometimes lofty principles and ideals do not reach the 'dumb' people being manipulated by grifters/fraudsters/criminals.
Fair. I'll admit to really only thinking of Europe when I responded. Something "feels" uniquely awful about American fundamentalism, but that might just be vibes instead of me knowing anything... Sort of to your point.
American fundamentalism maybe more virulent because these people are rich (unlike the poor and ignorant who are cultivated in other parts). I am no expert and like all of you I am just trying to make sense of what is happening. It is a gut punch because we emigrated from India in our 20s tired of Indian corrupt politics/government. Here we are 30+ years later with all that we liked and admired in danger of extinction.
I guess I have to offer a clarification, by dumb I don't mean dictionary definition, I mean rich/poor people who don't use all their faculties to figure out what is in their self interest or in the interest of the society at large, right from wrong... Sure there are plenty of elections that go bad in other countries but they are also not the richest country with resources.
Agree with your point about post Reagan RW machine but the Republicans before trump were using their extreme views to gut policies within the norms of elections and peaceful transfer of power but now trump/SCOTUS have shattered that carefully managed agenda. And, it looks like trump is operating on behalf of America's adversaries to destroy the modern administrative state and usher in dictatorship. I don't think the Reagan RW machine signed up for that.
Re buying abortion medicine in advance, one issue is how long its shelf life is. Shelf life is tricky. I am wondering whether anyone has done studies specifically oriented to this medicine. Also helpful would be storage recommendations to extend the shelf life (e.g. keeping it from excessive heat). How necessary and effective is that, and what is the best environment for long-term storage? Ideally one could buy some of this medicine and store it for several years, and it will still be safe and effective, but specific guidelines would be helpful.
The problem is that there is not a lot of study about this topic but the defense department has done studies that medications (primarily antibiotics) last much longer than there expiration dates. Agree with Lesley, control moisture with a desiccant and a tight seal (or best vacuum pack) and refrigerate. No matter what the prochoice movement must stockpile abortion medication like MAGA stockpiles guns.
I saw a discussion on Wapo’s comment site that seemed useful. Sealing the pills in a vacuum pack and putting the pack in a tightly closed glass jar that will be kept in a fridge, was suggested. Apparently, light and oxygen are the enemies and these two things will help keep the medicine usable. I’m not a scientist, so I’ll need to ask around to see if this is a good idea.
Most medicines will last long past their expiration date if stored in a cool dark place (applicable for pills, does not apply to liquid Rx drugs).
When can we call it femicide?
Now.
I knew it was going to happen, but I’m still gobsmacked by the people who voted for the ballot measures to protect abortion then completely canceled out those votes by voting for MAGA.
Foolish and ignorant people.
<“underestimating their capacity to face suffering.” > This tells you everything about these people. They make a fetish of other people’s suffering, especially the suffering of women. While progressives define “strong women” by what we can achieve, conservatives define “strong women” by what they can endure.
That’s an excellent observation! I agree with Zach. We should be repeating it. 👍👏👏👏
Very eloquently put. We should be repeating that one.
Please explain white women trump voters. It's so disturbing. Why why why?
My interpretation is that they think they get the 'benefits' of patriarchy via the men they're connected to, and they're choosing that over their own freedom. I suppose it's common to choose (a false sense of) security over freedom.
This comment “robbing our patients of an opportunity for courage, or underestimating their capacity to face suffering.” is very J Marion Sims. Isn't the whole point of healthcare to reduce suffering?
Those words disgust/enrage me to the core. How dare he!!??
I don’t understand how they are robbing people of an opportunity if they have a choice. The choice is allowed. What they are doing is taking away any option. It’s like saying I won’t give you a choice of eating shrimp or tofu when I know you are allergic to shrimp because I don’t want you to be deprived of the experience of eating shrimp. I’m willing to force you to eat the thing that will kill you.
Religious conservatives believe relieving suffering, especially that of women, is a moral hazard.
Jessica, what would you say is the best org to support if we want to help fund lawsuits against the administration? Is it the ACLU?
I also donate to Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.
I donate a small amount monthly to the ACLU and Planned Parenthood.
CFRR. Center for reproductive rights
I second that. I support them.
I feel this is a legal battle. Our right to bodily autonomy is to be won in the courts.
Ooh, another good org to donate to!
I don’t understand their reasoning. The definition of an abortion is simply the ending of a pregnancy before viability. If they perform a c-section before viability then it’s still an abortion. If they want to claim otherwise then they would have to say that causing the uterus to shed the fetus, regardless of viability, is simply pre-mature birth and therefore taking mifepristone and misoprostol is simply an expedited birth. If we are playing with definitions then we can claim this. Consider the fact that they don’t recognize the work a woman does to build the fetus. They consider that fetus a baby with a life of its own. Okay. So expedited birth should therefore be fine. She can deliver the fetus, regardless of the stage of development, and hand it over to the state since the state seems to have a vested interest in that fetus. After all, how hard can it be if a little girl can do it?
Your logic is always so clear, and it's so frustrating that logic doesn't seem to matter one iota in today's world. Idk what it will take for that to change.
Thank you. When I was a high school science teacher, I would spend weeks on the scientific method and experimental design to teach reasoning skills. My students had never had such training and they took to it very well. I was roundly condemned for taking so much time because it wasn’t in the state mandated list of objectives. You would think it would be, but there’s a reason the powerful don’t want people to be able to reason. It makes them harder to manipulate.
Sadly true.
The problem in red states is even if the fetus is dying (from a placental abruption or other), if it still has a heartbeat, they consider it viable.
So if it’s a viable “baby” then just deliver it. We just call it a delivery regardless of the manner or developmental stage.
That's some very sly word play, and I am here for it. It's what they do!
Bruchalski is a sadist. Of course, he's a devout Catholic who buys into a patriarchal, misogynistic institution that was founded by and for ththe supremacy of men. Blathering about the nobility of suffering is disgusting, but par for thecourse for a religious institution built to persuade adherents that suffering in the real world will guarantee them blessings in a mythical afterlife.
I've wondered all along whether those ballot initiatives were undermining our larger battle. It's not surprising that folks voted for them and MAGA too. So many MAGA voters don't think Trump will do half the things he threatens to do.
I had a convo with a MAGA guy today who incredulously told me that I was "lying" when I said Trump overturned Roe. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The guy said "the judges did it. Not Trump." I had to explain that he appointed them and they lied under oath and were picked just for that reason -- to overturn Roe. Then I had to find him articles with Trump bragging.
The level of ignorance is astounding.
I read that people are googling how to change their vote post election! The ignorance is astounding.
Ignorance. One of our biggest enemies. Never-ending battle.
Undermining the larger battle? We're trying to claw back these bans because they're killing women!
Understood totally and agree. But if the result is electing republicans along with them, what good does it do in the end? The republicans are going to work to undo the freedoms that were fought to attain in the ballot initiatives.
There were a lot of people who split their votes.
Because at least SOME of the Republicans in these states do not support these drastic bans.
Here in Kansas, after the 2022 vote on keeping abortion legal, we've had one House member introduce 3 different bills to ban abortion. They either didn't make it out of committee or were voted down in the House. She has vowed to continue to try and pass bills. We'll see.
WHY are we not hearing from the AMA on this issue?
Agree!