Thank you for keeping me up to date on every horrid action threatening and succeeding to take away our bodily autonomy. I am a 75-year-old survivor of a nasty illegal and incomplete abortion, performed by a board-certified and Hopkins-celebrated ob-gyn that included sexual assault on the table. Those who take comfort in the notion that if they have the money, they will always be able to get a “real” doctor to perform the procedure on them or perhaps a daughter or other pregnant person they care about are sadly mistaken. Getting that “real” doctor doesn’t guarantee the right outcome. I am terrified.
Thanks for sharing. It's very important to not think this will only affect women who are poorer, less educated, otherwise disadvantaged - because America has shown it is willing to ignore those people. Everyone else should feel threatened too.
I was a sexual health educator in college at Kansas State University 2003-2007 and I became quite knowledgeable about all the STIs and the condoms and etc. I wasn’t surprised by the ignorance, the apathy and the stupidness, just disheartened. One person told me “I’m married, I don’t have to worry about it” at our free condoms table.... I was called a prude SO MUCH! Makes no sense!! I was encouraging safe sex not saying don’t have sex. Bunch of jerks. Told me the same in high school. I’m still scared to have sex even though I’m on BC, who knows when we will be handmaids tale.
I continued this passion and wrote several research papers about the scientifically proven, peer reviewed ways to actually decrease abortions, unintended pregnancies and STIs. None of them included this bullshit. Like banning abortions, birth control and treating women like objects to be used.
It’s horrifying that sex Ed has never been nationally required. Truly egregious especially since we are SOOOOO PROLIFE. Wouldn’t we want our future baby makers to be educated? Since we care SO MUCH about children?
Even though the USA doesn’t even guarantee basic human needs for children. Yes, so prolife!!
In my Christian nationalist household, we learned nothing about sex other than “don’t have it.” I didn’t know what sex was, because if I learned anything it might make me curious. My curiosity might lead me to try it. Never mind that we were all perpetually horny and didn’t understand why. I masturbated even though I didn’t know what it was. I didn’t know what an orgasm was called until college.
This is THE basis for not teaching sex education in the US: it might make kids curious enough to have sex, so we’ll tell them not to have it and make it sound dirty and wrong. It’s theocratic bullshit.
I’m rarely focused on the positive aspects of this country’s downward spiral, but my Rep (and hopefully future CA Senator) Barbara Lee is all about truth telling. Huzzah for her efforts to expand reproductive health education. As we say in the Bay, Barbara Lee speaks for me.
Here’s what drives me nuts: Many Republicans--especially women--oppose these despicable laws and restrictions, and yet come the next election, they will “pull the lever” for the candidate with the “R” next to their name. It’s baffling and infuriating.
Yeah those were exactly the arguments used against women voting in the first place - their husbands could just do it for them. These people want to return to the 19th century, when life was short and brutal.
It depends what else is more important to them. Racism, usually as other issues viewed through a racial lens, is a big one. Not wanting to pay taxes is another. And they most likely just don't trust Democrats to govern, so idk what it takes for them to see that Republicans are even worse.
Many have heard how evil and demonic and extreme liberals are for decades. They don’t know any liberals for reference, and when they meet one, they immediately shut down interactions with thought-terminating statements. They have been taught from their pulpits that liberals will usher in the anti-Christ. It’s totally irrational, emotional fear.
Definitely. The thread started wondering why people who are pro-choice would keep voting Republican, and I'm guessing those are the less religious of the Republican coalition, or at least they don't quite fit this description. It would be useful to better understand that group of voters (the ones who'll vote pro-choice on an amendment but still vote for Republican candidates).
I'm not sure if this article was already flagged on A,ED, but it's a good read- the states are using fetal parenthood to put women behind bars. Sorry I couldn't get a link, but you can copy and paste info Google search to pull it up.
"In the ruling, Justice John Kittredge admitted that the law “infringes on a woman’s right of privacy and bodily autonomy,” but “the legislature has made a policy determination that, at a certain point in the pregnancy, a woman’s interest in autonomy and privacy does not outweigh the interest of the unborn child to live.” "
Yes. Exactly. And that doesn't cause them the slightest bit of distress. To them that's just the way "God" made it, by puttin' them babies into them womenfolk.
“At a certain point in the pregnancy” pretty much equals pregnancy in this case, making women chattel, yes. Baby-birthing vessels with no rights or humanity.
I wanted to write an article about how this is by definition chattel slavery and the history of reproductive enslavement during antebellum slavery. I just don't have the know how unfortunately.
Let it sit and percolate in your brain with your notes on paper. I bet it will clarify after awhile. At minimum it will feel good to get it out. At maximum you will produce a very good read to share with all. I admire the effort, either way.
My first thoughts were "you can do it!" too. But I'm chiming in to say that it's also important to know yourself and your limitations, and to not be discouraged or disappointed by things others can do that you can't. I'm sure in an alternate universe there's a version of me that's a top lawyer or a judge, or maybe a governor, on the front lines fighting this, but in our universe, I'm just here in the comments section. And that's okay. I suspect you know that and would agree, but it's good to hear it from other people sometimes too :)
Thanks Zach. I'm learning it's okay to be a normie. I just wish someone could write the things I want to say better than I can. I'd even try and pay them to do it if I had the money.
It's a downward spiral in the red states, and I don't think the blue states are doing, or even able to do, enough to create virtuous cycles in their own states, to provide a counter for the country as a whole. We need solutions backed by the power of the federal government. It's the 1850s all over again.
In non specific news... Did you guys hear about the polling of Trump's base? They trust him more than clergy, their families and their friends. Just insane.
Just finished an interesting book: Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths—and How We Can Stop (2019). It takes a 100 year overview of narcissist and sociopathic leaders on both the left and the right, and shows how they all use a similar formula. Most helpfully, the author lays out concrete and researched strategies for turning the public against toxic leaders. Although the author does not discuss it directly, abortion fits precisely in his framework of leaders emotionally manipulating voters through the manufacturing of phony crises. A key point is to never, ever directly attack the leader or his supporters. Instead, continually expose each phony crisis with facts, using the BIFF framework (brief, informative, friendly, firm). Maybe easier said than done, but it did make me think a little differently.
Makes sense but I worry about the effort to move to a post-truth or post-facts world. What does it take to get to the point where they can't deny reality anymore? That's what I think our side is wondering.
They're very disturbed people. Something has decayed for them to get to that point. We are in a place where the preferred candidate for president of one of the two parties is a man facing 91 felony charges. What these people are doing is nothing less than an insurrection against America, and they will destroy everything, including the rest of us, if we let them. (And, of course, they would say the EXACT same thing as I've just said, the entire statement, just switching who's the us and who's the them. It's hard to see how this ends well.)
I had a long conversation about this tonight, too long to regurgitate here. But short answer: they have been used and betrayed by their leaders in ways they cannot comprehend or understand. It causes decay, yes, in ways it’s hard to grasp if one hasn’t lived it. Few have the strength required to reject it.
"used and betrayed by their leaders", "in ways they cannot comprehend or understand". Yes, that sounds plausibly right. I guess I would just say a post- mortem on which leaders or types of leaders specifically, and the exact nature of the use and betrayal, is probably helpful in figuring out what to do. What do you do with broken people, who are lashing out?
Very good book by Steven Hassan, who is an expert on cults (and a former Moonie), called "The Cult of Trump." It was published in 2017 or 2018. Cults are generally thought of as religious, but Hassan's work is pretty clear that cults can be political (Trump), economic (MLMs), and even sociological (Scientology is a psychology cult masquerading as a religion--or maybe the other way around.) Fascinating work.
Sometimes it makes me wonder, like in my other comment in this thread: is my support of the 91 felony charges and my alarm over it just a mirror image of their rejection of the 91 felony charges and their alarm over it? At the end of the day, what's the difference? Are we just two opposing sides in a war? Is there any way for right or wrong to even matter anymore?
I’ve lived in South Carolina for 50 years and know several of the Good Ol’ Boys who made this possible. I’m not surprised by this dreadful news.
I consoled myself by sitting along a Spanish plaza, drinking with a classmate from Luxembourg, and talking about how it feels to not be in South Carolina or the US. Because today I am fucking elated to be here and not there. And tomorrow I will share more pro-choice education, give to more pro-choice groups, and support a blue tsunami in 2024.
We all must stop and give ourselves some love and care to keep fighting. Here’s to everyone here who takes a bit of time to refill your tanks, however you need. We’re going to need our collective fuel to incinerate these assholes, but I believe in us.
Im moving soon and slapped myself for forgetting to look up the laws in any of the states I’m looking at. Hopefully I’ll be in Washington real soon and that’s a place to be if you’re a fertile woman (or think you are) and don’t want kids
I’ve been thinking a lot about how these bans may affect student choice when it comes to where they go to college. I’m guessing enrollment numbers aren’t going to tell the whole story - I suspect that the true impact will be on the political makeup of the student body going forward as these bans compound the polarization of the country, which will only set off negative feedback loops. Red state campuses are likely to become more conservative. Maybe Holcomb doesn’t care about this, but I imagine some of the prestigious universities in his state (and their faculty) might...
I’m in the middle of this now. I have twins and live in Texas. We saved assuming they would go to school in-state. Now I’m looking at a pretty big price tag to send them to a blue state.
Ouch. I suppose moving to a blue state and getting in-state tuition there is completely out of the question? It's always easy to tell someone, "run to the hills, run for your lives", but real life isn't that easy and there are millions of Americans trapped in the red states, whose governments and public policies have quickly gone off the deep end in the last few years. I'd like to say "help is on the way" but it might be a while before we can fix this with the federal government.
That would be a hard sell to kids in the top 5% of their class. It doesn't help that I'm the only one stressed out about this. My kids keep assuring me things will be fine!
It will likely alter many universities in another race to the bottom. I’m encouraging every young person in my life to avoid red state universities, and if they can, study outside the US.
Yeah. The problem is today's conservatives (we could argue this has always been true but that's another tangent) oppose the mission of universities and education in general: the search for truth using rigorous methods. There's an argument that the progressive left has fallen victim to this as well, especially at universities, but even so, two wrongs don't make a right. The most likely result seems to be to make Americans stupider, and that certainly doesn't bode well for the future. And yes you would expect the feedback loop to deepen the divisions between red states and blue states, at a time when they're already at a very dangerous level.
Awful news from South Carolina. A book recommendation: The Patriarchs: The Origins of Inequality by Angela Saini (Beacon Press, 2023). Comprehensive historical view of societies, many of them matriarchal/matrilineal (some which still exist) and how we got to the misogynistic patriarchies which now oppress women as well as LGBTQ+ people. - Ed
Thank you for keeping me up to date on every horrid action threatening and succeeding to take away our bodily autonomy. I am a 75-year-old survivor of a nasty illegal and incomplete abortion, performed by a board-certified and Hopkins-celebrated ob-gyn that included sexual assault on the table. Those who take comfort in the notion that if they have the money, they will always be able to get a “real” doctor to perform the procedure on them or perhaps a daughter or other pregnant person they care about are sadly mistaken. Getting that “real” doctor doesn’t guarantee the right outcome. I am terrified.
Thanks for sharing. It's very important to not think this will only affect women who are poorer, less educated, otherwise disadvantaged - because America has shown it is willing to ignore those people. Everyone else should feel threatened too.
I was a sexual health educator in college at Kansas State University 2003-2007 and I became quite knowledgeable about all the STIs and the condoms and etc. I wasn’t surprised by the ignorance, the apathy and the stupidness, just disheartened. One person told me “I’m married, I don’t have to worry about it” at our free condoms table.... I was called a prude SO MUCH! Makes no sense!! I was encouraging safe sex not saying don’t have sex. Bunch of jerks. Told me the same in high school. I’m still scared to have sex even though I’m on BC, who knows when we will be handmaids tale.
I continued this passion and wrote several research papers about the scientifically proven, peer reviewed ways to actually decrease abortions, unintended pregnancies and STIs. None of them included this bullshit. Like banning abortions, birth control and treating women like objects to be used.
It’s horrifying that sex Ed has never been nationally required. Truly egregious especially since we are SOOOOO PROLIFE. Wouldn’t we want our future baby makers to be educated? Since we care SO MUCH about children?
Even though the USA doesn’t even guarantee basic human needs for children. Yes, so prolife!!
In my Christian nationalist household, we learned nothing about sex other than “don’t have it.” I didn’t know what sex was, because if I learned anything it might make me curious. My curiosity might lead me to try it. Never mind that we were all perpetually horny and didn’t understand why. I masturbated even though I didn’t know what it was. I didn’t know what an orgasm was called until college.
This is THE basis for not teaching sex education in the US: it might make kids curious enough to have sex, so we’ll tell them not to have it and make it sound dirty and wrong. It’s theocratic bullshit.
Don’t get me started on HPV vaccinations for everyone & STI’s in the elderly, there are just so many great topics...
Thanks for carrying that torch
Also, it's bad to be educated because then you might defy "God". I think they get that from the Adam and Eve story.
Education is their enemy, and they know it. They can only keep this up if they can keep people in the dark.
This.
I’m rarely focused on the positive aspects of this country’s downward spiral, but my Rep (and hopefully future CA Senator) Barbara Lee is all about truth telling. Huzzah for her efforts to expand reproductive health education. As we say in the Bay, Barbara Lee speaks for me.
Here’s what drives me nuts: Many Republicans--especially women--oppose these despicable laws and restrictions, and yet come the next election, they will “pull the lever” for the candidate with the “R” next to their name. It’s baffling and infuriating.
It’s so damn gross too. Like when our trump ball gargling neighbors wife said “I just let my husband decide”. Barf.... 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
This is so rampant on the right.
Whaaat??? Noo o
Yeah those were exactly the arguments used against women voting in the first place - their husbands could just do it for them. These people want to return to the 19th century, when life was short and brutal.
It depends what else is more important to them. Racism, usually as other issues viewed through a racial lens, is a big one. Not wanting to pay taxes is another. And they most likely just don't trust Democrats to govern, so idk what it takes for them to see that Republicans are even worse.
Many have heard how evil and demonic and extreme liberals are for decades. They don’t know any liberals for reference, and when they meet one, they immediately shut down interactions with thought-terminating statements. They have been taught from their pulpits that liberals will usher in the anti-Christ. It’s totally irrational, emotional fear.
Definitely. The thread started wondering why people who are pro-choice would keep voting Republican, and I'm guessing those are the less religious of the Republican coalition, or at least they don't quite fit this description. It would be useful to better understand that group of voters (the ones who'll vote pro-choice on an amendment but still vote for Republican candidates).
I know. I don't understand it.
I'm not sure if this article was already flagged on A,ED, but it's a good read- the states are using fetal parenthood to put women behind bars. Sorry I couldn't get a link, but you can copy and paste info Google search to pull it up.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/07/25/pregnant-women-prosecutions-alabama-oklahoma
I love the Marshall Project! So much great info, resources and education
They could give Jessica competition if there was a most disturbing story contest.
Truth!!! I get daily emails of horror
"In the ruling, Justice John Kittredge admitted that the law “infringes on a woman’s right of privacy and bodily autonomy,” but “the legislature has made a policy determination that, at a certain point in the pregnancy, a woman’s interest in autonomy and privacy does not outweigh the interest of the unborn child to live.” "
So... Literally slavery?
That quote killed me as well. Reading it just makes me livid. If men got pregnant.... boy oh boy...
Yes. Exactly. And that doesn't cause them the slightest bit of distress. To them that's just the way "God" made it, by puttin' them babies into them womenfolk.
“At a certain point in the pregnancy” pretty much equals pregnancy in this case, making women chattel, yes. Baby-birthing vessels with no rights or humanity.
I wanted to write an article about how this is by definition chattel slavery and the history of reproductive enslavement during antebellum slavery. I just don't have the know how unfortunately.
I've tried. I got 20,000 words but all of it is a hot mess!
Let it sit and percolate in your brain with your notes on paper. I bet it will clarify after awhile. At minimum it will feel good to get it out. At maximum you will produce a very good read to share with all. I admire the effort, either way.
My first thoughts were "you can do it!" too. But I'm chiming in to say that it's also important to know yourself and your limitations, and to not be discouraged or disappointed by things others can do that you can't. I'm sure in an alternate universe there's a version of me that's a top lawyer or a judge, or maybe a governor, on the front lines fighting this, but in our universe, I'm just here in the comments section. And that's okay. I suspect you know that and would agree, but it's good to hear it from other people sometimes too :)
Thanks Zach. I'm learning it's okay to be a normie. I just wish someone could write the things I want to say better than I can. I'd even try and pay them to do it if I had the money.
Agreed!
Evil, evil, evil! I cannot begin to express how much these laws make me want to scream!
It's a downward spiral in the red states, and I don't think the blue states are doing, or even able to do, enough to create virtuous cycles in their own states, to provide a counter for the country as a whole. We need solutions backed by the power of the federal government. It's the 1850s all over again.
In non specific news... Did you guys hear about the polling of Trump's base? They trust him more than clergy, their families and their friends. Just insane.
Just finished an interesting book: Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths—and How We Can Stop (2019). It takes a 100 year overview of narcissist and sociopathic leaders on both the left and the right, and shows how they all use a similar formula. Most helpfully, the author lays out concrete and researched strategies for turning the public against toxic leaders. Although the author does not discuss it directly, abortion fits precisely in his framework of leaders emotionally manipulating voters through the manufacturing of phony crises. A key point is to never, ever directly attack the leader or his supporters. Instead, continually expose each phony crisis with facts, using the BIFF framework (brief, informative, friendly, firm). Maybe easier said than done, but it did make me think a little differently.
Sounds very interesting
Micro dicks. They control US ALLL!!!
Makes sense but I worry about the effort to move to a post-truth or post-facts world. What does it take to get to the point where they can't deny reality anymore? That's what I think our side is wondering.
It is a cult.
They're very disturbed people. Something has decayed for them to get to that point. We are in a place where the preferred candidate for president of one of the two parties is a man facing 91 felony charges. What these people are doing is nothing less than an insurrection against America, and they will destroy everything, including the rest of us, if we let them. (And, of course, they would say the EXACT same thing as I've just said, the entire statement, just switching who's the us and who's the them. It's hard to see how this ends well.)
I had a long conversation about this tonight, too long to regurgitate here. But short answer: they have been used and betrayed by their leaders in ways they cannot comprehend or understand. It causes decay, yes, in ways it’s hard to grasp if one hasn’t lived it. Few have the strength required to reject it.
"used and betrayed by their leaders", "in ways they cannot comprehend or understand". Yes, that sounds plausibly right. I guess I would just say a post- mortem on which leaders or types of leaders specifically, and the exact nature of the use and betrayal, is probably helpful in figuring out what to do. What do you do with broken people, who are lashing out?
It's a literal cult.
Very good book by Steven Hassan, who is an expert on cults (and a former Moonie), called "The Cult of Trump." It was published in 2017 or 2018. Cults are generally thought of as religious, but Hassan's work is pretty clear that cults can be political (Trump), economic (MLMs), and even sociological (Scientology is a psychology cult masquerading as a religion--or maybe the other way around.) Fascinating work.
Yes I've heard of him. Watched a few podcasts where he was interviewed. Interesting guy!
Imagine if Jim Jones had millions of followers instead of just hundreds.
(And yeah Jones was a left-wing cult, which is maybe just support for the idea that the extreme left and the extreme right meet in the same place.)
The extremes engage in the same behaviors. If you turn the sound off and know nothing about the person or group, the behaviors are the same.
Sometimes it makes me wonder, like in my other comment in this thread: is my support of the 91 felony charges and my alarm over it just a mirror image of their rejection of the 91 felony charges and their alarm over it? At the end of the day, what's the difference? Are we just two opposing sides in a war? Is there any way for right or wrong to even matter anymore?
I’ve lived in South Carolina for 50 years and know several of the Good Ol’ Boys who made this possible. I’m not surprised by this dreadful news.
I consoled myself by sitting along a Spanish plaza, drinking with a classmate from Luxembourg, and talking about how it feels to not be in South Carolina or the US. Because today I am fucking elated to be here and not there. And tomorrow I will share more pro-choice education, give to more pro-choice groups, and support a blue tsunami in 2024.
We all must stop and give ourselves some love and care to keep fighting. Here’s to everyone here who takes a bit of time to refill your tanks, however you need. We’re going to need our collective fuel to incinerate these assholes, but I believe in us.
Im moving soon and slapped myself for forgetting to look up the laws in any of the states I’m looking at. Hopefully I’ll be in Washington real soon and that’s a place to be if you’re a fertile woman (or think you are) and don’t want kids
But I’ve been on BC since 2004? So I’m usually covered but you never know..... and I do not want to be another horror story
I’ve been thinking a lot about how these bans may affect student choice when it comes to where they go to college. I’m guessing enrollment numbers aren’t going to tell the whole story - I suspect that the true impact will be on the political makeup of the student body going forward as these bans compound the polarization of the country, which will only set off negative feedback loops. Red state campuses are likely to become more conservative. Maybe Holcomb doesn’t care about this, but I imagine some of the prestigious universities in his state (and their faculty) might...
Oh no.
Healthcare also. Everything. Feedback. I’m trapped in a sea of red. This is a nightmare.
I’m in the middle of this now. I have twins and live in Texas. We saved assuming they would go to school in-state. Now I’m looking at a pretty big price tag to send them to a blue state.
Ouch. I suppose moving to a blue state and getting in-state tuition there is completely out of the question? It's always easy to tell someone, "run to the hills, run for your lives", but real life isn't that easy and there are millions of Americans trapped in the red states, whose governments and public policies have quickly gone off the deep end in the last few years. I'd like to say "help is on the way" but it might be a while before we can fix this with the federal government.
Get out now, before it’s too late.
That would be a hard sell to kids in the top 5% of their class. It doesn't help that I'm the only one stressed out about this. My kids keep assuring me things will be fine!
It will likely alter many universities in another race to the bottom. I’m encouraging every young person in my life to avoid red state universities, and if they can, study outside the US.
Yeah. The problem is today's conservatives (we could argue this has always been true but that's another tangent) oppose the mission of universities and education in general: the search for truth using rigorous methods. There's an argument that the progressive left has fallen victim to this as well, especially at universities, but even so, two wrongs don't make a right. The most likely result seems to be to make Americans stupider, and that certainly doesn't bode well for the future. And yes you would expect the feedback loop to deepen the divisions between red states and blue states, at a time when they're already at a very dangerous level.
Awful news from South Carolina. A book recommendation: The Patriarchs: The Origins of Inequality by Angela Saini (Beacon Press, 2023). Comprehensive historical view of societies, many of them matriarchal/matrilineal (some which still exist) and how we got to the misogynistic patriarchies which now oppress women as well as LGBTQ+ people. - Ed
Thank you for recommending this book. I'll be putting it on my list.